Question about notating 7th chords

[bullshark]

I'm writing this song making lot's of use of 7th chords. 7, for me, were just adding the 7th notes of the scale of the chord, and notated, taking C as example, "C7" which would give me "C-E-G-B"; but my notation editor insist on writing "C7" as "C-E-G-A#"...what the heck? This, to the french me, is "C7dim"...To get "C-E-G-B" I have to write "C7M" in the notation editor, another "what the heck".

So, how are you supposed to write 7th chord?

[Gregjazz]

You have to write "major" (CM7) to specify not only the presence of a major 3rd, but a natural 7th as well. If you just write "C7", without a "major" or "minor", it is dominant; the seventh then being flat.

[HongKongTain]

You have to write "major" (CM7) to specify not only the presence of a major 3rd, but a natural 7th as well. If you just write "C7", without a "major" or "minor", it is dominant; the seventh then being flat.

EXACTLY.

[Toxikator]

in classical analysis, "7" means diatonic 7, which is a term that comes from figured bass (ii7 is a minor 7, V7 is a dominant 7)... and you can specify the chords with the MmAd system (Mm7, mM7, dm7, dd7, AM7, MM7, etc).

In jazz analysis, "7" means Major-minor 7th (aka Dominant 7th); M7 means major 7th, m7 means minor 7th, o7 means diminished 7th, and ø7 means half-diminished 7th... you'll also see a triangle instead of an uppercase M, a - instead of a lowercase m, and diminished chords are sometimes notated as minor chords with a b5 (Gø7 might, for example, be notated as Gmb5)

[bullshark]

Got it, thanks guys.

[JumpingJackFlash]

taking C as example, "C7" which would give me "C-E-G-B"; but my notation editor insist on writing "C7" as "C-E-G-A#"...what the heck? This, to the french me, is "C7dim"...

This would actually be C-E-G-Bb, - note the Bb not the A# (because it has to be seven notes above the root). This is a C major triad with an added minor 7th, which is commonly called a 'dominant seventh'. (in this case, V7 in the key of F major).

My post on Scales, Modes and Chords lists all the different kinds of seventh chords.

Basically, the 3rd can either be major or minor, and the seventh can also be either be major or minor.

Major 3rd and major 7th: - Major Seventh.
Major 3rd and minor 7th: - Dominant Seventh.
Minor 3rd and major 7th: - Minor major seventh (no common short name).
Minor 3rd and minor 7th: - Minor seventh.

The 5th can also be modified (in addition to the 7th and/or the 3rd) to create diminished, half-diminished and augmented sevenths. (See the link above)

[bullshark]

My post on Scales, Modes and Chords lists all the different kinds of seventh chords.

Clear and concise, extremely usefull when you want to write for others to play, thank's. Why isn't that a sticky?

[DocAtlas]

in classical analysis, "7" means diatonic 7, which is a term that comes from figured bass (ii7 is a minor 7, V7 is a dominant 7)... and you can specify the chords with the MmAd system (Mm7, mM7, dm7, dd7, AM7, MM7, etc).

In jazz analysis, "7" means Major-minor 7th (aka Dominant 7th); M7 means major 7th, m7 means minor 7th, o7 means diminished 7th, and ø7 means half-diminished 7th... you'll also see a triangle instead of an uppercase M, a - instead of a lowercase m, and diminished chords are sometimes notated as minor chords with a b5 (Gø7 might, for example, be notated as Gmb5)

Don't forget the minor-major 7th chord (i.e., C-Eb-G-B), to further confuse things. A good example is the third chord in Pink Floyd's 'Us & Them'. Strangely enough, we were taught in college to NEVER use the designation 'half-diminished'; we were told to always write it as a minor 7 (b5). Actually, our school used the '-' sign for minor, so it would have been written '-7b5'. With my handwriting, I find that the minus sign is a better choice than a lower-case 'm'. It's hard to tell whether or not I've written upper or lower case; it has resulted in chords other than what I intended being played.

[VicDiesel]

taking C as example, "C7" which would give me "C-E-G-B"; but my notation editor insist on writing "C7" as "C-E-G-A#"...what the heck? This, to the french me, is "C7dim"...

This would actually be C-E-G-Bb, - note the Bb not the A#

Right. C-E-G-A# would be C6+ or something: it's an augmented sixth, not a seventh.

If your notation editor really renders it that way it was written by babboons and should not come near to actual musicicians.

Victor.

PS a Cdim chord would have a Bbb, not an A.

[bullshark]

If your notation editor really renders it that way it was written by babboons and should not come near to actual musicicians.

It does render it that way and... aren't all software devs babboons anyway?

[Toxikator]

It looks like it shows things in terms of "only sharps" or "only flats"... there's the little enharmonic button on there.

stupid indeed, but then again it looks like it's designed for guitarists

(KIDDING!)

[bullshark]

It looks like it shows things in terms of "only sharps" or "only flats"... there's the little enharmonic button on there.

stupid indeed, but then again it looks like it's designed for guitarists

Pffiou, just imagine if it had been designed for drummers...

(kidding barely...)

[Toxikator]

in classical analysis, "7" means diatonic 7, which is a term that comes from figured bass (ii7 is a minor 7, V7 is a dominant 7)... and you can specify the chords with the MmAd system (Mm7, mM7, dm7, dd7, AM7, MM7, etc).

In jazz analysis, "7" means Major-minor 7th (aka Dominant 7th); M7 means major 7th, m7 means minor 7th, o7 means diminished 7th, and ø7 means half-diminished 7th... you'll also see a triangle instead of an uppercase M, a - instead of a lowercase m, and diminished chords are sometimes notated as minor chords with a b5 (Gø7 might, for example, be notated as Gmb5)

Don't forget the minor-major 7th chord (i.e., C-Eb-G-B), to further confuse things. A good example is the third chord in Pink Floyd's 'Us & Them'. Strangely enough, we were taught in college to NEVER use the designation 'half-diminished'; we were told to always write it as a minor 7 (b5). Actually, our school used the '-' sign for minor, so it would have been written '-7b5'. With my handwriting, I find that the minus sign is a better choice than a lower-case 'm'. It's hard to tell whether or not I've written upper or lower case; it has resulted in chords other than what I intended being played.

Well I PERSONALLY prefer to write things by the MmAd designation when they're outside the common convention of M7, 7, m7, o7, or ø7, and skip on all that symbol crap. Also I don't like the "m7b5" because I THINK in terms of triads, and that triad is diminished, so when I notate it as a m7b5 it comes across as a minor chord with an alteration and not a fundamentally diminshed chord (I know there's no difference sonically, it's just a perception thing).

BTW in my handwriting when the lowercase and uppercase letters are similar I'll do the little "line over the letter" to show it's lowercase.

[DocAtlas]

Well I PERSONALLY prefer to write things by the MmAd designation when they're outside the common convention of M7, 7, m7, o7, or ø7, and skip on all that symbol crap. Also I don't like the "m7b5" because I THINK in terms of triads, and that triad is diminished, so when I notate it as a m7b5 it comes across as a minor chord with an alteration and not a fundamentally diminshed chord (I know there's no difference sonically, it's just a perception thing).

BTW in my handwriting when the lowercase and uppercase letters are similar I'll do the little "line over the letter" to show it's lowercase.

I suppose the naming conventions are kind of moot when you work with musicians who don't even know the names of the chords they're playing. I'm fortunate enough NOW to work with some talented, knowledgeable guys, but I have worked with guitarists who honestly couldn't hear the difference between major & minor triads. Mentioning augmented & diminished chords just got me the deer-in-the-headlights look.

Still, no matter what names are used for chords, it's always kind to other musicians for me to type what I want to them to play. I could probably be consigned to a special place in Hell for making them suffer through reading anything I wrote out by hand.

[BosseJo]

What about this chord: C7-10...you can still see it in old handwritten jazz notations.