Minor keys, I just want to get this sorted.

[Subtle]

Alright, I dont know much about music theory.

I like things sounding dark, emotional, depressing.. its just the chord progressions i like.

I have a technique when im producing, I write all the white keys from A to A in my piano roll, and then i know that however i transpose it, it will end up on a minor scale.

I know there are 3 minor keys, harmonic, melodic and natural.

first, which of the three minor keys do you get when u play all white notes scale starting at A ?

second, lets say the A Minor is the scale 2-1-2-2-1-2-2 (which is all the white notes from A to A.

what would be the numbers for a harmonic, melodic and natural ?

I have tried reading, and googling.. I just dont find it, so if you could ignore my lousy explanation and explain it a bit to me, would be nice

[Toxikator]

the minor scale you get is the natural minor when you play A to A.
The harmonic minor has a #7 (this means you play A to A, but instead of G you play G#)
the melodic minor scale has a #6 AND a #7 (so you play G# and F#)
The dorian mode has a #6 (so you play F#).

In other words, when playing in minor keys, you may freely substitute the 6 and 7 for the # 6 and #7 as you see fit.

Of course, it's more complicated than that, since the choice of notes reflects the choice of harmony and/or melody, but that's the basics of it.

[Subtle]

Thanks, this explains alot.

I notice though, that when i play a G# instead of G it sounds awfully disharmonic.

So what is the trick ?

[Toxikator]

the trick is it sounds disharmonic!

actually, here's the thing; you want to RAISE that tone in first class chords and lower it in others.

so for example, if you were in A minor, you'd play a CEG chord (sometimes CEG# but it's got a special use), an ACEG chord, etc. But you'd play an EG#B chord or a G#BD chord, because having the leading tone resolves well to the ACE tonic.

[tuckermc]

Hi Subtle,

I'd like to post a minor difference of opinion (no pun intended) about melodic minor keys. Typically in melodic minor, you'll sharp 6 and 7 when those notes are moving up and keep the "natural" when moving down (e.g., G# "should" be followed by A, but G should be followed by F, and likewise, F# should be followed by G#, and F should be followed by E). Basically, the idea was that the melodic minor allowed the root tonality (~key) to sound minor, but still keep a dominant chord (a major 5 chord, E G# B), which played an enormous role in the development of European music. Minor 5 chords were not seen to resolve appropriately to 1 (A C E). When a piece stays entirely in its natural minor, it is called "modal" (also true if it stays in dorian or any of the other natural modes). However, in modern electronic and many other types of music, including much folk music from the past several centuries, the natural minor is very common and a minor 5 chord (E G B) is used to resolve to 1 (A C E).

Take, e.g., the first part of Greensleeves. Here is the chord progression (more or less):

1 (minor)
7 (minor, moving down to 6)
6 (major)
5 (major, the piece could solve here, but repeats instead)
1 (minor)
7 (minor, moving down)
6 (major)
5 (major, with an embellishing F# that's followed by G#)
1 (minor, after 5 -> 1 cadence, we're done)

Hope that helps if you want to find an appropriate way to step out of the natural minor scale.

- Tucker

[edit: changed "harmonic" to "melodic", as was pointed out in subsequent posts]

[nuffink]

That's Melodic, not Harmonic, Minor. And the rest of it's somewhat confused too.

[Toxikator]

Indeed, that's melodic minor, and the "ascent/descent" principles were generally reserved for voiceleading; though I'm sure it's given consideration the point is that that sort of thinking has, in more recent musical developments, given way to the free substitution of the 3 (or I suppose in a sense, 4) modes of the minor

[BosseJo]

Thanks, this explains alot.

I notice though, that when i play a G# instead of G it sounds awfully disharmonic.

So what is the trick ?

In what context? If you just play the scale it's probably going to sound to like "Hava Nagila" after a while

[JumpingJackFlash]

I know there are 3 minor keys, harmonic, melodic and natural.
first, which of the three minor keys do you get when u play all white notes scale starting at A ?
second, lets say the A Minor is the scale 2-1-2-2-1-2-2 (which is all the white notes from A to A.
what would be the numbers for a harmonic, melodic and natural ?
I have tried reading, and googling.. I just dont find it, so if you could ignore my lousy explanation and explain it a bit to me, would be nice

Natural Minor: 2-1-2-2-1-2-2
Harmonic Minor: 2-1-2-2-1-3-1
Melodic Minor Ascending: 2-1-2-2-2-2-1

So, the all the white notes from A-A is the natural minor (A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A). Change the G to a G# and it becomes the harmonic minor. Change the F to an F# and the the G to a G#, and it becomes the melodic minor ascending. (Descending, the melodic minor is the same as the natural minor).

This is covered (along with examples) in my post on Scales, Modes and Chords. And also somewhat in my Introduction to Music Theory.

[tuckermc]

Oops, yes, sorry. I was speaking of melodic minor. Note that I have editted the above post. (Sorry, I should not post so soon after rolling out of bed). As for the rest of it, it's correct to a first order approximation. It is not, however, a first course in music theory, for which there is no short substitute.

- Tucker

[Subtle]

Thanks, this explains alot.

I notice though, that when i play a G# instead of G it sounds awfully disharmonic.

So what is the trick ?

In what context? If you just play the scale it's probably going to sound to like "Hava Nagila" after a while

im playing around with the scale, and I find nothing that sounds good. And most of whats explained above looks like greek to me :\

[BosseJo]

Thanks, this explains alot.

I notice though, that when i play a G# instead of G it sounds awfully disharmonic.

So what is the trick ?

In what context? If you just play the scale it's probably going to sound to like "Hava Nagila" after a while

im playing around with the scale, and I find nothing that sounds good. And most of whats explained above looks like greek to me :\

Some of it is probably greek... It is a tricky scale to get in yours ears for most people. Perhaps if you record a simple Am-E7 vamp and improvise over that for a while. In jazz the harmonic scale is seldom, probably never, used for more than a few bars. Some metal guitarists are known to use it but to me it doesn't sound that really know the sound of the scale. They just play it, up and down really fast.

[Subtle]

Im making mostly trance and progressive stuff, so I think i'll stick to the natural minor scale. atleast i know now that the natural minor is the adequate one.