Keeping your levels low in digital recording/mixing...

[jupiter8]

The first post is the biggest load of bull i've seen in a long time even by KVR standards.

Do realize that a lot of the "pro" advice is for integer based systems such as PTHD where it at least makes some sense. But for float based systems which almost all of us use,this is just bull.

It is very easy to test for yourself but if you want to believe you want to believe. There's no magic bullet to great recordings. Just years and years of hard work and trial and error. If you believe he has found the secret you're serioulsy deluding yourselves.

[bduffy]

Turn up the volume of your system, and mix at lower levels...

So, is that basically it? I mean, there are other things to take into account, but i'm just trying to get it straight in my head:

Mix everything low with your system volume up, and then normalise the end results?

The way i generally do it is try to tame the busses, but make them as loud as i can, this seems like quite the opposite........but i do always end up with 'bricks', so...

If you don't need bricks, then why make them? Is there really any reason to mix those groups into the red? I just don't think so.

You can do it that way, (I mean, if I'm looking for a totally overloaded, brickwalled drum sound, then I'll drive the input of a compressor on the drum bus hard, although I tend to use the compressor's controls for that), but I think you'll find you'll be fighting your mix a lot less if you just turn everything down. Give it a shot; save a new version of your mix, gang your faders, turn it down and start over, if you have to.

[bduffy]

The first post is the biggest load of bull i've seen in a long time even by KVR standards.

Really? You must've not read the "which host sums better: Cubase or Live?" thread!

Seriously, I don't think the guy's saying anything terribly controversial.

[jupiter8]

The first post is the biggest load of bull i've seen in a long time even by KVR standards.

Really? You must've not read the "which host sums better: Cubase or Live?" thread!

Seriously, I don't think the guy's saying anything terribly controversial.

Knowing your gain staging and how digital works is a must on getting amazing sound from a computer

Is a must ? Yeah right. Far from it buddy.

nuking damned hyper fast transients.

Oh those. The hyper fast ones are a real bitch.

Never limit 'into' the wave

Or what ? God kills a kitten ?

but if it peaks at say -11.2 db, i set a hard limiter right @ -11.2 for synths. HUGE HUGE HUGE difference when mixing ITB.

If it peaks at -11.2 what good will a limiter set at -11.2 accomplish ? Nothing ?

when used gave a nice boost in ease of mixing and sound quality.

So easy to prove wrong i'm not even going to bother.

And it just goes on and on and on........

[jens]

No shit !!!

I suspect that floating-point computing has a certain "optimum" range that doesnt introduce as much rounding errors as maybe other "less optimum" ranges.

ffFFLAMESSSSSsssssssssssss

Oh, and, btw., everybody knows that Opterons sound better because of their more musical FPU !!! Kiddies with Athlons and Cores go home. (Well - erm - gotta get me some Opteron ... )

spot on...

[kylen]

The way i generally do it is try to tame the busses, but make them as loud as i can, this seems like quite the opposite........but i do always end up with 'bricks', so...

I think generally folks are trying to say to hold off on that till mastering and you'll have better cleaner mixes. Seperate the 2 [different] processes. However if the experienced engineer uses a style that combines elements of both mixing and mastering and is successful then who's to complain. Early on while building technique it might be more appropriate to set a goal for a clean mix, then shoot for a loud master later at a different session. If one is successful at that style then why not keep that process...once things get to be familiar then the multi-dimensional, orthogonal, magical, shortcuts become 2nd nature - I guess that's both style and experience.

[jens]

If you don't need bricks, then why make them? Is there really any reason to mix those groups into the red? I just don't think so.

we've been there before - there practically is NO 'red' with integer - the only benefit clip-LEDs on the sequencer's channel-strips have is to help making the mixer resemble a christmas-tree...

[Reverse Engineer]

Turn up the volume of your system, and mix at lower levels...

So, is that basically it? I mean, there are other things to take into account, but i'm just trying to get it straight in my head:

Mix everything low with your system volume up, and then normalise the end results?

The way i generally do it is try to tame the busses, but make them as loud as i can, this seems like quite the opposite........but i do always end up with 'bricks', so...

If you don't need bricks, then why make them? Is there really any reason to mix those groups into the red? I just don't think so.

You can do it that way, (I mean, if I'm looking for a totally overloaded, brickwalled drum sound, then I'll drive the input of a compressor on the drum bus hard, although I tend to use the compressor's controls for that), but I think you'll find you'll be fighting your mix a lot less if you just turn everything down. Give it a shot; save a new version of your mix, gang your faders, turn it down and start over, if you have to.

If amateurs had a grading system, then i'd be a novice amateur. I did do that though...i went in, removed everything (fx, busses etc) and am going to start from scratch with all the individual tracks at a starting level of -21dB...I haven't a clue if that's what i should do, but i'm sure i'll find out soon enough. I've never used a compressor, only limiters, so that probably contributes to the problems i have even further. I'll say it now, and i'll probably say it in 10 years time, i'm very much an amateur who is still learning, and to a degree i hope i always am (it's a hobby, i enjoy it, and testing out this and that, messing up, hitting a target, all add to the enjoyment). Maybe one day i'll even get my head around compression.

[jens]

WOW - I just read a bit through the thread the OP linked to and I have to say it's the biggest pile of bullshit and misinformation I've read in a loooooong time...

[Hewitt Huntwork]

but if it peaks at say -11.2 db, i set a hard limiter right @ -11.2 for synths. HUGE HUGE HUGE difference when mixing ITB.

If it peaks at -11.2 what good will a limiter set at -11.2 accomplish ? Nothing ?

I have to admit I don't get this one. Will someone who agrees that this will accomplish something please enlighten me?

[sc_a]

Mixing Must Good!

[aciddose]

the thread is bullshit, but the basic concept (although remaining unidentified by the author) is something insightful.

if you're mixing at hard levels (above -6db) you're going to get clipping. if you're having to throw a limiter on everything it's an immediate sign THE LEVEL IS TOO DAMN HIGH.

it is just much easier to mix without having all your gains maxed out to the highest possible level before clipping. leave them back at about -6db or -12db and worry about maximization at the final stages. this will prevent the "mud", "dirt" and so on you get by having a saturated limiter on everything.

if you need to "bring out" some element, do not turn up the gain! turn down everything else. thanks to the fact we're using a format with a lot of headroom you can do this by turning up the channel you're interested in while turning down the master gain by an equal amount.

you should really try your best to make sure the signals passing through all your plugins are BELOW 0db at all times, though. plugins should expect a level of -6db...0db, and so you should maintain this range if possible for your inputs to them. some plugins do not depend upon signal levels, but many do. keep that in mind.

[jens]

if you're mixing at hard levels (above -6db) you're going to get clipping. if you're having to throw a limiter on everything it's an immediate sign THE LEVEL IS TOO DAMN HIGH.

why you as a great coder are saying such bullshit is beyond me.

Again: there's no reason at all to slap a limiter on a mixer-strip which doesn't feed a DA-converter just because it exceeds 0DB.

A limitter is a compressor i.e. a dynamic-plugin. Therefor when processing a signal it will change its dynamics and you should ONLY dfo t6his if you want to have the dynamics changed in exactly the way a limiter does.

If people slap limiters on everything they're gonna f**k up the dynamics of their mixes and if the limiter-plugins they use are of dodgy quality that doesn't help either.

So the problem with 'hot' mixing is that people do not realize what limiters are really for (changing the dynamics of the program-material) and instead think it's to stop a channel from exceeding 0DB (which in itlsef practially has no consequence at all due to the floating-point calculations of the summing-engine)

The problem is the limiter itself - not the imagined problem people are trying to solve with it.

[jens]

you should really try your best to make sure the signals passing through all your plugins are BELOW 0db at all times, though. plugins should expect a level of -6db...0db, and so you should maintain this range if possible for your inputs to them. some plugins do not depend upon signal levels, but many do. keep that in mind.

I partially agree here though - for some plugins it's important that they're feed with a certain input-level (though this depends on the respective plugin - e.g. GCO-1 should be fed with mainly ~ -3 to -2 db)...


...but then again those plugins should (and usually do) come with an input-control/-meter

[The Chase]

The concept of limiting something because it's too loud as opposed to turning it down always boggled my mind.

Of course, so does people not making full use of their bit resolution...