I could use some chord descriptions in minor.

[BosseJo]

What if we abandon the Piano, and focus more on a synthesizer ?

There should not be any difference whether it's guitar, piano or synth. BUT, since synthesizers often generate a lot of overtones perhaps there's a difference? Or perhaps I misunderstood your question?

[BosseJo]

Basjoe: The piano tuner is actually doing it WRONG, technically.

Then it's a good thing that you could enlighten him then isn't....?

[Toxikator]

Well I'm not saying it's a problem that he does it this way; everyone does. When you tune a guitar you do it by ear.

My point is that he shouldn't be lecturing like there's something wrong with using Equal Temperament tuning on an Equal Temperament INSTRUMENT. That's how it's SUPPOSED to be done... even though it's rarely tuned perfectly.

Tuning a piano justly rather than via an ET system will result in it sounding out of tune when played in a key other than the root note to which it's tuned or when it's played alongside any other properly ET instrument.

[Basjoe]

Whoa, that's not what I'm saying. I agree that if he tuned in harmonics, then the piano would only be in tune for that harmonic system. Nothing so straightforward. Perhaps Equal Temperament is an "ideal aim", but there are small inaccuracies in the tuning process linked to the idiosyncracies (skills, ear, taste) of the tuner and how he/she reacts to the physical characteristics of the piano, how the wood resonates and its "character". You can imagine how (to a trained ear) a perfect Equal Temperament tuning could sound character-less.

This means that each key is very very very very very slightly different. Far too small to be obvious. But maybe not small enough to have a negligible psychological effect.

If you don't believe what I've said, ask a professional piano tuner.

Basjoe

[Basjoe]

By the way, it's well worth reading Wikipedia's entry on piano tuning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_tuner

Basjoe

[wrench45us]

the choice of key does affect the frequency range of the notes, so I'm pretty sure almost anyone could tell the differnce between the same arrangement played in C and a fifth up or down in G.
My playing sounds richer if I move it down to Bb or esp Ab. And I've read the 'rule of thumb' for any comping is that the right hand thumb should be at or above middle C to avoid muddying an arrangement. Inversions can move things around, but choice of keys matters as well.
And I know a lot of piano players and songwriters prefer the flat keys for composing. This may be for voice range or working with horns or I don't know, but I've heard Eb was a favorite or Ray Charles and Elton Johhn -- now that's 2 different sorts of songs and styles. Go figure.
Working with guitars or guitar based songs will almost always be in the sharp keys G, D, A, E because of open strings and chord shapes on the guitar. If you look through an 'accurate' songbook guitar based bands will have most of their songs in sharp keys. Look through a jazz real/fake book and most songs are in flat keys.

[Toxikator]

Basjoe: I'm not doubting that what you're saying is true, but then it's not the diff. between C Major and E Major that makes the difference, it's the tuning difference between the keys; meaning that, among other things, there'd be no way to classify any PARTICULAR key as having a certain character; it's more left to the chance of how the tuning happens.

[Subtle]

What if we abandon the Piano, and focus more on a synthesizer ?

There should not be any difference whether it's guitar, piano or synth. BUT, since synthesizers often generate a lot of overtones perhaps there's a difference? Or perhaps I misunderstood your question?

I just want strictly differences in the keys themselves, not thinking of vocalists or piano out of tune.

Although, by your replies.. it seems that most people think that there arent differences in keys, only the intervals themselves.. which dissapoints me a little.

[gravehill]

I just want strictly differences in the keys themselves, not thinking of vocalists or piano out of tune.

In which tuning system would you like the differences explained? As said, every key sounds different in different tuning systems, except in equal temperament where they all sound the same.

Although, by your replies.. it seems that most people think that there arent differences in keys, only the intervals themselves.. which dissapoints me a little.

It is because of the differences in the intervals themselves that there are differences between keys! You can try this out very easily: fire up a microtuning capable softsynth, load any tuning except equal temperament and play for example major thirds and compare if they all sound the same.

There is also a free program called Scala that lets you explore different tuning systems easily.

[Basjoe]

One of the characteristics of a piano system that a tuner has to overcome is inharmonicity, a phenomenon of string consistency and thickness which produces partials (non-whole number overtones). These will tend to beat unpleasantly against other overtones in the system unless minute adjustments are made.

I found out only today that, because they are non-digital systems, neither the Fender Rhodes nor the Wurlitzer electric pianos are tuned exactly equal temperament. Amongst other things, their octaves are "stretched" - they get sharper the higher you go.

I'm not sure any of this is helping the original questioner, but it's a most agreeable diversion. The moral of the story is that all real-world musical instruments exhibit tonal and tuning "character". Equal temperament exists only in digital instruments.

Basjoe

[Toxikator]

Grave: that's a half-truth. for example, one might expect that in a meantone system, the key of C would sound different then the key of F. However, this is not really true; instead, what it means is that modes aren't equivalent.

In other words, C Major in meantone is no different than F Major in Meantone, presuming that C Major is tuned to C Meantone and F Major is tuned to F Meantone (which is how it ought to be done). It's only when playing, say, F Major in C Meantone that the differences arise. Equal Temperament is only special because there is no difference between "C ET" and "F ET".

Subtle: unless you're a synesthesiate (and a good few composers actually are) there is no inherent musical difference between root notes. What matters is the timbre, sonority, rhythm, and volume (and to a certain degree relative highness or lowness of the root, though it's more properly thought of in terms of octaves than keys).

Equal temperament exists only in digital instruments.
Basjoe

Well, it's not SUPPOSED to be that way . For example, a very good organ would likely be a very precise equal temperament (that is, no stretched octaves and no wolf intervals). The same would be true of a concert Grand piano. You could of course fudge some intervals to taste but the point is a good piano will have it's sights set, in a sense, on perfect Equal Temperament. If it didn't, you would of course have stretched octaves or wolf intervals, and no piano I've ever played has had those problems.

[gravehill]

Grave: that's a half-truth. for example, one might expect that in a meantone system, the key of C would sound different then the key of F. However, this is not really true; instead, what it means is that modes aren't equivalent.

In other words, C Major in meantone is no different than F Major in Meantone, presuming that C Major is tuned to C Meantone and F Major is tuned to F Meantone (which is how it ought to be done). It's only when playing, say, F Major in C Meantone that the differences arise. Equal Temperament is only special because there is no difference between "C ET" and "F ET".

Which one is a half-truth exactly? Of course there's no intervallic difference between C meantone and F meantone. But I'm presuming that one would employ only one tuning system at a time and as soon as you modulate, the differences will become clear. So what I actually wanted so say was that "every key sounds different in different tuning systems, within that one particular temperament, except in equal temperament where they all sound the same."

[nuffink]

If it didn't, you would of course have stretched octaves or wolf intervals, and no piano I've ever played has had those problems.

As if you'd ever heard of a stretched octave before

By the way, it's well worth reading Wikipedia's entry on piano tuning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_tuner

let alone were able to identify one on an instrument.

[JumpingJackFlash]

These days, generally everything is, and everything should be tuned in equal temperament. - The only exceptions are when you are deliberately trying to (re)create another effect, for example to reenact a historical performance of early music, or using other tunings for special effect in modern music.

But generally, all real instruments are in equal temperament. - To do otherwise would be crazy as they would all be out of tune with each other and the cumulative effect would be disastrous. - The system may not be perfect, but a universal system does need to exist (in Western music at least).

However, in practise, instruments are tuned by man, and played by man. - Man is not a computer, by nature it is very difficult to get every single note exactly in tune (with equal temperament). - Tuning is dependant on so many things; physical dimensions of the instrument, temperature of the room, finger position, embouchure (as appropriate), and so on. In reality, it is almost impossible to have every (real) instrument 100% in tune all the time for every note.

Therefore, yes, in practise there is always going to be very slight differences between different keys. - Equal temperament is always striven for, but in practise small irregularities in tuning usually occur. - This is NOT a function of the keys themselves though, just human error. - Remember, the 'key' is really a theoretical concept, and in theory, the music is in equal temperament. - Therefore, in theory at least, there should be no difference between the different keys.

[respirator]

We CAN hear the imperfections of equal temperament. A good choir doesn't and cant sing equal temperament. They "tune in".