Circle of 5ths

[musikjock]

Since I've recently been dabbling more and more into theory (thanks to toxicator,JJF,and this website ), its no surprise that I have discovered the circle of 5ths to be a useful songwriting tool and improvisational tool. However, I don't think i am taking everything away from it that I should be. I'm hesitant to ask a specific question because I am not even exactly sure what I am trying to discern.

I understand that (starting from C or Am respectively) each descending or ascending 5th will have an added # in its major scale. I also understand that you can resolve to the 5th at anytime and the notes will theoretically be consonant. But what does this mean to you as a songwriter? Where are the lines drawn so to speak..or are there any lines? Can you theoretically keep resolving to the next fifth until you've reached the original starting point?

I guess I just hope someone can explain the concept better

[JumpingJackFlash]

Since I've recently been dabbling more and more into theory (thanks to toxicator,JJF,and this website ), its no surprise that I have discovered the circle of 5ths to be a useful songwriting tool and improvisational tool. However, I don't think i am taking everything away from it that I should be. I'm hesitant to ask a specific question because I am not even exactly sure what I am trying to discern.

I understand that (starting from C or Am respectively) each descending or ascending 5th will have an added # in its major scale. I also understand that you can resolve to the 5th at anytime and the notes will theoretically be consonant. But what does this mean to you as a songwriter? Where are the lines drawn so to speak..or are there any lines? Can you theoretically keep resolving to the next fifth until you've reached the original starting point?

I guess I just hope someone can explain the concept better

You can start anywhere you like, not necessarily on C or Am. Also note that, while you are correct that when ascending, each successive key will have one more sharp, when you move the other way, each key will have one more flat.

This is what makes keys a 5th apart so close; there is only one note difference between them. - So it sounds quite natural to modulate between them.

Yes, you can move sharpwards or flatwards and eventually end up in the same key you started on. (Although you don't have to, you can stop at any time).

It is useful in composing, arranging and improvising.

The following is taken from one of my previous posts:


The cycle (or circle) of fifths is a chain of keys a perfect 5th apart (rising or falling), which in equal temperament, you can keep going up (or down) in 5ths until you get back to the original note (at a higher or lower octave), having passed through all other keys in the process. (Enharmonics may be required).

So, for example:
C,G,D,A,E,B,F#,C#,G#,D#,A#,E#,B#
And B# enharmonically, is C, which is the original note 7 octaves higher.

Or, descending:
C,F,Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb,Cb,Fb,Bbb,Ebb,Abb,Dbb.
Notice, this is the same as above, only backwards (using enharmonic equivalents).

You can start on any note, and move in any direction. Because a descending 5th inverted is an ascending 4th (and vice versa), this is also known as the Cycle of Fourths (switch ascending and descending sequences above).

Note then when ascending in 5ths, each successive key will have one sharp more than the previous key. And when descending in 5ths, each successive key will have one flat more than the previous key.

Moving flatwards is most common when modulating, since the tonic of the previous key can become the dominant of the next.
For example: V-I in C major is G followed by C.
This chord of C then becomes the dominant of F major.
Then, F becomes the dominant of Bb, etc.

This gives us:

Code: Select all

C : V - I
F :     V - I
Bb:         V - I
Eb:             V - I
Ab:                 V - I
Db:                     V - I
Gb:                         V - I
Cb:                             V - I
etc.

Moving sharpwards is also fairly common.

This technique is used in everything, from classical to jazz. You don't have to go through all 11 keys, sometimes a piece just goes through a few, either very quickly, or over the course of many bars (or even movements).

Often, real sequences are used in the melody, over the cycle of 5ths. This is quite common in classical works.

[musikjock]

first off, great explanation. definately solidfied the some things I wasn't sure about. I think my biggest question was really addressed in your last two sentences. I mean..is it safe to say that circle of fifths is most useful in key changes? That how I see it being most useful, but you say sometimes peices will go through several keys very quickly. That seems confusing. would you just play a few consecutive 5ths and eventually resolve to the note most appropriate with the peice?

[JumpingJackFlash]

first off, great explanation.

Thanks.

I think my biggest question was really addressed in your last two sentences. I mean..is it safe to say that circle of fifths is most useful in key changes?

That is certainly a very important aspect to it. Say for example you wanted to modulate between C major and Gb major. - These two keys are very different to each other, and so going between them is difficult, and likely to create a big dramatic contrast. Instead of moving directly from one to the other, which might not sound nice (too disjointed), one trick is to use the cycle of fifths so that you go though other keys on the way, eventually ending up in Gb major.

So, firstly you would go to F briefly. - This is very similar to C, so the transition is much easier and much less dramatic. You then go to Bb, - which again is very similar to F, and so on, through Eb, Ab and Db, and finally ending up on Gb. - This transitional process smoothes out the change. - You are moving in many small steps rather than one big one.

(Note for interest; the other way to modulate from C to Gb without using the cycle would be where a pivot of Vb in C is quitted as the Neapolitan 6th in Gb).

That how I see it being most useful, but you say sometimes peices will go through several keys very quickly. That seems confusing. would you just play a few consecutive 5ths and eventually resolve to the note most appropriate with the peice?

Every time you move through the cycle you are changing key. - So, from C to G is changing key. From G to D is changing key again, etc. - The music may only spend a short amount of time in each of these individual keys, therefore you are going through several keys very quickly. See my Introduction to modulation (changing key)

You don't necessarily have to resolve as such, you can just continue in the key you end up in.

[Toxikator]

The circle of fifths (backwards) is also often a good way to move about root notes in a key.
For example, going from em to am to dm to GM to CM, you've moved through the circle of fifths (e-a-d-g-c) and also made a quality progression (iii-vi-ii-V-I).

[guitargeek9]

i never use the circle of fifths when i write or improvise. i never learned how to read it, and i've been studing MT for 3 years now. kinda weird i know. But here's a saying to know when you improvise. "If you're thinkin', you're stinkin'". it is so true. just feel it.

Tyler

[musikjock]

i never use the circle of fifths when i write or improvise. i never learned how to read it, and i've been studing MT for 3 years now. kinda weird i know. But here's a saying to know when you improvise. "If you're thinkin', you're stinkin'". it is so true. just feel it.

Tyler

I agree in a sense that 'feeling it' is very important to musical improvisation..and that was pretty much my chosen technique for many years; that is until I realized solely 'feeling' can actually be a huge limitation to ur playing. For example, when you are playing lead on guitar its very important to mentally follow the progression that your playing to really be able to create an original sounding peice of music. I mean, anyone can learn all the notes on a fretboard in a given key, close their eyes and go to heaven town. Guitar players are a dime a dozen; everybody and their mom can do that. But each different chord you are playing over should be thought of as its own entity because each chord elicits different notes that can be played (IE arpeggios, etc). This is why I have found it increasingly important to actually think HARDER while improvising. You have to know where you are in the melody at all times if you want to really create an original sounding peice.

Of course thinking TOO hard may inhibit your playing but i believe its important to find that comfortable balance.

I'd like to hear what experienced musicians have to say on this matter. Perhaps there is a universal point where you can wave all the thinking and still create orginal lead..

In regards to the responses to the original message..everything is completely cleared up now. Glad to have this concept fully under my belt

[eddu]

This gives us:

Code: Select all

C : V - I
F :     V - I
Bb:         V - I
Eb:             V - I
Ab:                 V - I
Db:                     V - I
Gb:                         V - I
Cb:                             V - I
etc.

Moving sharpwards is also fairly common.

This technique is used in everything, from classical to jazz. You don't have to go through all 11 keys, sometimes a piece just goes through a few, either very quickly, or over the course of many bars (or even movements).

I am a bit confused. So for example, imagine i want to write a song in CMaj, and i start moving thru the different chords of the scales (II, IV, V...whatever). Then at a certain point i want to use the circle of fifths. Questions:

1. Can i begin at any point of the circle or do i have to begin at the C position?

2. If i start moving flatwards, for example, you say i can stop whenever i want. So imagine i move from C to Ab and stop there. Now does the song have to be continued in Ab major scale and its chords (or modes, sorry i never remember what is what)?

[JumpingJackFlash]

I am a bit confused. So for example, imagine i want to write a song in CMaj, and i start moving thru the different chords of the scales (II, IV, V...whatever). Then at a certain point i want to use the circle of fifths. Questions:

1. Can i begin at any point of the circle or do i have to begin at the C position?

Well you are in C major, so that is generally where you would be starting. - It's not so much that you *have* to start there, just that you are naturally doing so.

There is nothing to stop you from first modulating to a different key, and from there start a cycle of fifths. - So, you could start in C major, modulate to D major (somehow not using the cycle), then start in D major and go through the cycle from there. - But you will still be starting the cycle in whatever key you are in at that point.

2. If i start moving flatwards, for example, you say i can stop whenever i want. So imagine i move from C to Ab and stop there. Now does the song have to be continued in Ab major scale and its chords (or modes, sorry i never remember what is what)?

Generally yes, you stop the cycle and continue in whatever key you end up in. - However, as above, there is nothing to stop you stopping the cycle, then modulating to another key (somehow not using the cycle), and continuing in this new key.

Note that the cycle of fifths is not the only way to change key. Also, note that you can pass through keys very briefly without them being firmly established. - In such cases, it is debatable whether you are actually 'changing key'. For the purposes above I have assumed that you are, but it doesn't really matter what you call it.

Does that help?

[VicDiesel]

1. Can i begin at any point of the circle or do i have to begin at the C position?

Try following this principle: you're allowed one illogical jump (for instance in C you play a B chord), but then you have to follow the cycle of 5ths. So you go Em, A, Dm, G, and you're back at C. The A major is just to keep it fresh, you could use Am too.

2. If i start moving flatwards, for example, you say i can stop whenever i want. So imagine i move from C to Ab and stop there.

Well, if you use my principle above, you will not stop "downstream" (or flatwards, interesting word) from C, but actually upstream. For instance,

C -B - Em - Am -Dm -G (stop cycling and take another jump: ) - Em - Am -Dm -G - C

Or using tritone substitutions:

C - B - Em - Am - Dm - G - Em - Eb - Dm - Db7 - C

Something. Just play around. Whatever sounds good.

Victor.

[eddu]

Note that the cycle of fifths is not the only way to change key

Sorry i dont know much about harmony...do you have any link where i could learn differents methods to modulate or something? Any article on modulation u know?

C -B - Em - Am -Dm -G

I if understand correctly you are changing here from major to minor chords. As i have seen in some many drawings (i.e: http://www.carolinaclassical.com/scales/circle2.jpg ) the chords listed always are major. Can you change major/minor as you wish when using the circle then?

Thanks

[JumpingJackFlash]

Note that the cycle of fifths is not the only way to change key

Sorry i dont know much about harmony...do you have any link where i could learn differents methods to modulate or something? Any article on modulation u know?

Yes; check out my Introduction to modulation (changing key). - That should give you the basics.

C -B - Em - Am -Dm -G

I if understand correctly you are changing here from major to minor chords. As i have seen in some many drawings (i.e: http://www.carolinaclassical.com/scales/circle2.jpg ) the chords listed always are major. Can you change major/minor as you wish when using the circle then?

Well, it's probably more common to stick to major keys, however if you like the idea of going through minor keys, then go for it! - Notice that the dominant seventh chord in the harmonic minor is the same as the dominant seventh chord of the same major key. (For example in C major/minor, both are G,B,D,F). However, this tends to resolve better to major tonics than minor tonics (the seventh has to fall a tone instead of a semitone), so the progression may not be as strong in minor keys, but as with all things, there is nothing to stop you from using them if you like.

Also, the tonic chord of the minor key cannot ever be the same as the dominant chord of any major or harmonic minor key (since this would always be major), so the chart I posted wouldn't work. (Unless you used the dominant of the natural minor (which is a minor chord), but this really doesn't work very well).

If you don't understand the previous two paragraphs, don't worry about them, just stick to major chords

[headquest]

The circle of fifths is a very important concept in terms of understanding classical diatonic harmony and theory... and it is well worth taking time to work out chord progressions that revolve around the circle. It is also a sound basis for learning the major and minor scales.

However, it is important to also know that many musical styles - including pop/rock/jazz - do not fundamentally use diatonic harmony. For example, it is common for a rock song that sounds *major* key to in fact be *mixolydian* (an older scale pattern sometimes called "modal"). A typical mixolydian chord pattern based around G might be:

G > C > F > C (repeat).

This is a pattern that breaks the rules of the G major scale in terms of classical theory, so would be marked as *wrong* if you were harmonising a typical Bach Chorale/Haydn Quartet exercise at college! The problem is the chord *F*, which does not belong in G major. And it breaks away entirely from the circle of fifths theory...

So the point to take away from this is that learning about the circle of fiths is useful for classical theory and developing a general understanding of key signatures (etc), but when it comes to improvising and songwriting in modern contemporary styles it is a good idea to break away from these types of formulae.

I hope that helps, and if I have simply confused you feel free to come back with questions, etc!

[VicDiesel]

Well, it's probably more common to stick to major keys, however if you like the idea of going through minor keys, then go for it!

Well, G goes to C, and D goes to G, but if you're actually playing in the key of C, then you would use the default chord on the note D, which is D min. So, in C, a part of the circle of 5ths would go Em-Am-Dm-G-C.

Victor.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Well, it's probably more common to stick to major keys, however if you like the idea of going through minor keys, then go for it!

Well, G goes to C, and D goes to G, but if you're actually playing in the key of C, then you would use the default chord on the note D, which is D min. So, in C, a part of the circle of 5ths would go Em-Am-Dm-G-C..

Well, there's the cycle of fifths which is used in sequences when modulating, and then there's the relationship between diatonic chords a fifth apart. - Although related, they aren't really the same.

The whole point of the cycle of fifths is that you are passing through different keys. If you stick to diatonic chords in one key, then you aren't really using the cycle as such. So vi-ii-V-I is a very common progression (in the major key), but it is not the cycle of fifths.

Also, although headquest sort-of has a point, he seems to be confusing several different things, many of which have absolutely nothing to do with the cycle of fifths.