Oh god don't remind me the cold toast I ate recently...Sorry, must be all the Cold Toast I ate this morning!
Poly-Ana 1.0 New VA softsynth. 1 week full functioning demo
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- KVRian
- 936 posts since 29 May, 2002 from UK
There's an old saying Admiral Quality and thats 'Dont feed the troll' 
Having said that, Improvs right!. All this beef with Chris helps keep the thread near the top, generating more interest!.
Haven't tried this synth yet, but listened to a couple of the demos and it sounded pretty cool!
That's all I care about, not whats going on under the hood.
Hell there's synths which alias and for me have a much richer alive sound than those with super smooth band limited oscillators.
Sometimes when programming on sytrus for example, I actually prefer the sound of the oscillators with band limited switched OFF, and just using oversampling instead. Sure it eats more power, but just gives a slightly meatier sound to my ears.
Why?!?, i have no idea, i dont know, i dont care!. I just fiddle n tweak with the synth controls and wait for a sound that sounds good.
As long as synth developers keep using their ears and let that be the primary guide thats the main thing. Just let the geeks who post up frequency display images on threads carry on bumping up the threads
Having said that, Improvs right!. All this beef with Chris helps keep the thread near the top, generating more interest!.
Haven't tried this synth yet, but listened to a couple of the demos and it sounded pretty cool!
That's all I care about, not whats going on under the hood.
Hell there's synths which alias and for me have a much richer alive sound than those with super smooth band limited oscillators.
Sometimes when programming on sytrus for example, I actually prefer the sound of the oscillators with band limited switched OFF, and just using oversampling instead. Sure it eats more power, but just gives a slightly meatier sound to my ears.
Why?!?, i have no idea, i dont know, i dont care!. I just fiddle n tweak with the synth controls and wait for a sound that sounds good.
As long as synth developers keep using their ears and let that be the primary guide thats the main thing. Just let the geeks who post up frequency display images on threads carry on bumping up the threads
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- KVRAF
- 10597 posts since 13 Jun, 2004 from Alberto Balsam
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- KVRAF
- 1949 posts since 21 Mar, 2003 from Labrador
Erm..no, we are not talking about food. Frozen Ghost was a bad shlock pseudo-new wave band from Toronto in the 1980's. Us Canadians call then Cold Toast-they were that bad!Shy wrote:Oh god don't remind me the cold toast I ate recently...Sorry, must be all the Cold Toast I ate this morning!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frozen_Ghost
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- KVRAF
- 19156 posts since 13 Feb, 2003 from Vancouver, Canada
Holy crap, they sucked.Improv wrote:Erm..no, we are not talking about food. Frozen Ghost was a bad shlock pseudo-new wave band from Toronto in the 1980's. Us Canadians call then Cold Toast-they were that bad!Shy wrote:Oh god don't remind me the cold toast I ate recently...Sorry, must be all the Cold Toast I ate this morning!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frozen_Ghost
But luckily we also had...uhm...er...
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AdmiralQuality AdmiralQuality https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=83902
- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 6657 posts since 10 Oct, 2005 from Toronto, Canada
Sandy Horn from The Spoons handed me her pick from the stage at a show in the Student Union Building when I was 17.Improv wrote:Erm..no, we are not talking about food. Frozen Ghost was a bad shlock pseudo-new wave band from Toronto in the 1980's. Us Canadians call then Cold Toast-they were that bad!Shy wrote:Oh god don't remind me the cold toast I ate recently...Sorry, must be all the Cold Toast I ate this morning!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frozen_Ghost
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- KVRAF
- 19156 posts since 13 Feb, 2003 from Vancouver, Canada
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- KVRAF
- 2187 posts since 25 Jan, 2007 from the back room, away from his wife's sight (or so he thinks)
oh dearAdmiralQuality wrote:And yes it's a ladder filter. Wouldn't be much of an analog model if it wasn't. You're not stealing my mojo on that one.
Are you implying analog synths all have ladder filters? Ever heard of a Korg MS-20? Blame my laptop's backlight for breaking. If it hadn't, I'd have long tried it.AdmiralQuality wrote:It kills me that you haven't even tried it yet but you're in here mouthing off. That is SO you!
AdmiralQuality wrote:I also like your plans to put your scope before your ears when you try it.
Read what I wrote againLet me describe the sequence of eventsChris Walton wrote:If I hear aliasing I will fire up my frequency analyzer and my oscilloscope
(1) I listen
(2) If I don't hear aliasing, proceed with (4)
(3) Load up analyzers and find source of aliasing
(4) Done
Ok, valid point. I don't agree with the tradeoff (especially with techniques like BLEP) but thats not something I can just say "you're wrong" to.AdmiralQuality wrote: Look, there's trade-offs with every method and Poly-Ana can alias a LOT, if you set it right. It's a FEATURE. (Turn off the oversampling, open the filters completely, and play very high pitched square waves. There's your aliasing. I hope you survive the experience, wear protection.)
And no, aliasing isn't analog behavior, but we all understand that analog sound is the GOAL, but obviously the technique is digital. And set near the edges of the envelope, Poly-Ana can make some VERY digital sounds. But when patched like you'd want most classic analog sounds, it sounds like a classic analog. Yeah, you'll still find some aliases on your scope, you don't need to tell me about them. But you won't usually hear them.
No offense meant, just stating fact ... hearing of higher frequencies drops off with age, and thats usually where I start hearing the aliasing first.AdmiralQuality wrote:I don't and I'm a sound BITCH!
I'd still be interested to know the method of oscillators in PolyAna. I guess I could deduce a decent guess with analyzers. I remember you hanging out in BLEP threads so I really don't know. Its not like I'm asking for a trade secret unless you're using some sort of special proprietary way (even in the realm of BLEP or BLIT, there are alot of things to do differently).
Cakewalk by Bandlab / FL Studio
Squire Stratocaster / Chapman ML3 Modern V2 / Fender Precision Bass
Formerly known as arke, VladimirDimitrievich, bslf, and ctmg. Yep, those bans were deserved.
Squire Stratocaster / Chapman ML3 Modern V2 / Fender Precision Bass
Formerly known as arke, VladimirDimitrievich, bslf, and ctmg. Yep, those bans were deserved.
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- KVRAF
- 7872 posts since 21 Dec, 2002 from MD USA
Chris Walton wrote:oh dearAdmiralQuality wrote:And yes it's a ladder filter. Wouldn't be much of an analog model if it wasn't. You're not stealing my mojo on that one.
Blame my laptop's backlight for breaking. If it hadn't, I'd have long tried it.AdmiralQuality wrote:It kills me that you haven't even tried it yet but you're in here mouthing off. That is SO you!
AdmiralQuality wrote:I also like your plans to put your scope before your ears when you try it.
Let me describe the sequence of eventsChris Walton wrote:If I hear aliasing I will fire up my frequency analyzer and my oscilloscope
(1) I listen
(2) If I don't hear aliasing, proceed with (4)
(3) Load up analyzers and find source of aliasing
(4) Done
Ok, valid point. I don't agree with the tradeoff (especially with techniques like BLEP) but thats not something I can just say "you're wrong" to.AdmiralQuality wrote: Look, there's trade-offs with every method and Poly-Ana can alias a LOT, if you set it right. It's a FEATURE. (Turn off the oversampling, open the filters completely, and play very high pitched square waves. There's your aliasing. I hope you survive the experience, wear protection.)
And no, aliasing isn't analog behavior, but we all understand that analog sound is the GOAL, but obviously the technique is digital. And set near the edges of the envelope, Poly-Ana can make some VERY digital sounds. But when patched like you'd want most classic analog sounds, it sounds like a classic analog. Yeah, you'll still find some aliases on your scope, you don't need to tell me about them. But you won't usually hear them.
No offense meant, just stating fact ... hearing of higher frequencies drops off with age, and thats usually where I start hearing the aliasing first.AdmiralQuality wrote:I don't and I'm a sound BITCH!
I'd still be interested to know the method of oscillators in PolyAna. I guess I could deduce a decent guess with analyzers. I remember you hanging out in BLEP threads so I really don't know. Its not like I'm asking for a trade secret unless you're using some sort of special proprietary way (even in the realm of BLEP or BLIT, there are alot of things to do differently).
Look little boy why don't you come back and talk to this guy when you have produced a product yourself.
my music: http://www.alexcooperusa.com
"It's hard to be humble, when you're as great as I am." Muhammad Ali
"It's hard to be humble, when you're as great as I am." Muhammad Ali
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- KVRAF
- 1949 posts since 21 Mar, 2003 from Labrador
Were you perhaps thinking of that band ? What was their name? Oh ya-Platinum Blonde! EEEEEEEEEEKKKKK!!!! Now there was bad-a bigger bunch of poser big hair wanna-bees you could never hope to meet!bduffy wrote: But luckily we also had...uhm...er...
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AdmiralQuality AdmiralQuality https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=83902
- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 6657 posts since 10 Oct, 2005 from Toronto, Canada
It's OK ATS, he's calming down. As am I.
Arke, I wish I could tell you exactly how it works. I have to really try to restrain myself sometimes because I love talking about it and there's some parts of it you wouldn't believe (well, I think we've already established that ). And I too was surprised it worked as well as it did. I stumbled across this method and my ears told me it was good. That it had the airy, hairy qualities that, to my ears, seem to be lacking in the standard stuff. If you didn't grow up with classic analog synths, I wouldn't be surprised if you don't hear it. But I've been playing them for 25 years and while there's MANY products with many great features out there, many of which I admire and consider inspirations, there's just something a little different about Poly's character and (many) people hear it. The OS method is certainly wasteful compared to a well optimized BLEP, that's the other tradeoff. But if the sound is worth it, most won't care about the CPU power (and without naming names, it's actually better for CPU than some noteable recent releases from some of the "big boys".)
Oh and Poly was mostly done when I was in those BLEP threads, I do try to absorb knowledge about techniques I'm not currently using as well, my tunnel vision isn't THAT bad. And like I said above, I may add an option at some point to further reduce aliasing, and that will probably be a BLEP somehow mashed into what I'm currently doing. That will be an interesting experiment. But it won't happen until a bit more optimization happens. Not a promise, but that's my intention.
And it's not like I'm dogmatically opposed to ever using a BLEP, it's just not what Poly-Ana is. I certainly don't mean to suggest that technique isn't valid and valuable, it is. Nor do I mean to suggest Poly-Ana is somehow fundamentally better than any other product. But I can asssure you, it's different than most, and that would account for a different sound. It's not marketing B.S. The sound is what brought me here.
Anyway, it is oversampling, but maybe not in the exact way you were taught to do it, because it's not for the exact same purpose as most oversampling. Originally I wasn't even going to let on that there was oversampling involved but it bubbled to the surface as a feature. Really, I should think up some silly acronym for the method and trademark it, as some of the more famous companies have done. Poly-Ana, with THT (tm) (Try Harder Technology) !
(And if only it was the high frequencies where aliasing was the problem, then I could filter it out. But we all know it doesn't work like that, that the whole reason they're called aliases is because they are the low frequency artifact of a higher frequency above Nyquist.)
There might be some new stuff coming in regards to this as well. Not going to say anything more until its done but hoping to make the system make a bit more sense. At the very least the OS/Quality setting is coming to the front panel. I originally wanted to keep any "imaginary" features off the front, I wanted nothing that wouldn't have made sense in 1977 on there. But oh well, time to cave a bit on that issue.
<-- Mike wears his sunglasses at night...
Arke, I wish I could tell you exactly how it works. I have to really try to restrain myself sometimes because I love talking about it and there's some parts of it you wouldn't believe (well, I think we've already established that
). And I too was surprised it worked as well as it did. I stumbled across this method and my ears told me it was good. That it had the airy, hairy qualities that, to my ears, seem to be lacking in the standard stuff. If you didn't grow up with classic analog synths, I wouldn't be surprised if you don't hear it. But I've been playing them for 25 years and while there's MANY products with many great features out there, many of which I admire and consider inspirations, there's just something a little different about Poly's character and (many) people hear it. The OS method is certainly wasteful compared to a well optimized BLEP, that's the other tradeoff. But if the sound is worth it, most won't care about the CPU power (and without naming names, it's actually better for CPU than some noteable recent releases from some of the "big boys".)Oh and Poly was mostly done when I was in those BLEP threads, I do try to absorb knowledge about techniques I'm not currently using as well, my tunnel vision isn't THAT bad. And like I said above, I may add an option at some point to further reduce aliasing, and that will probably be a BLEP somehow mashed into what I'm currently doing. That will be an interesting experiment. But it won't happen until a bit more optimization happens. Not a promise, but that's my intention.
And it's not like I'm dogmatically opposed to ever using a BLEP, it's just not what Poly-Ana is. I certainly don't mean to suggest that technique isn't valid and valuable, it is. Nor do I mean to suggest Poly-Ana is somehow fundamentally better than any other product. But I can asssure you, it's different than most, and that would account for a different sound. It's not marketing B.S. The sound is what brought me here.
Anyway, it is oversampling, but maybe not in the exact way you were taught to do it, because it's not for the exact same purpose as most oversampling. Originally I wasn't even going to let on that there was oversampling involved but it bubbled to the surface as a feature. Really, I should think up some silly acronym for the method and trademark it, as some of the more famous companies have done. Poly-Ana, with THT (tm) (Try Harder Technology) !
(And if only it was the high frequencies where aliasing was the problem, then I could filter it out. But we all know it doesn't work like that, that the whole reason they're called aliases is because they are the low frequency artifact of a higher frequency above Nyquist.)
There might be some new stuff coming in regards to this as well. Not going to say anything more until its done but hoping to make the system make a bit more sense. At the very least the OS/Quality setting is coming to the front panel. I originally wanted to keep any "imaginary" features off the front, I wanted nothing that wouldn't have made sense in 1977 on there. But oh well, time to cave a bit on that issue.
<-- Mike wears his sunglasses at night...
Last edited by AdmiralQuality on Tue May 01, 2007 1:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
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- KVRAF
- 8099 posts since 12 Dec, 2003 from Canada
One To Onebduffy wrote: But luckily we also had...uhm...er...
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AdmiralQuality AdmiralQuality https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=83902
- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 6657 posts since 10 Oct, 2005 from Toronto, Canada
You learn something every day. I didn't realize that it was actually spelled "Cōld Tōast".
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- KVRAF
- 19156 posts since 13 Feb, 2003 from Vancouver, Canada
Yeah, that's right: they had umlauts so cool, they're not umlauts!AdmiralQuality wrote:You learn something every day. I didn't realize that it was actually spelled "Cōld Tōast".
BLAAAAAAGH!!!!!polyslax wrote:One To Onebduffy wrote: But luckily we also had...uhm...er...
Actually, I was wracking my brain, trying to remember what was actually good from that time, and I remembered this:Oh, and Admiral: just for the record, as someone who played old analog stuff when this shit was on the radio; I definitely recognize something in Poly-Ana that reminds me of that era (without the glittery trenchcoats and DX7's, of course!
). I know naught of the science under the hood, but there is something different about Poly-Ana. But I think I've said that before...