Until now I was working with software instruments 90% of the time and was doing fine with my 2-in E-MU 121m audio interface. I'm starting to incorporate more hardware into my recordings. Although I never need to record more than one instrument at a time, I don't want to have to switch cables on my audio interface everytime I want to record a different piece of hardware. I did this a lot with my old Audiophile 24/96 and eventually damaged the inputs from switching cables so much.
Do I buy a mixer or a patchbay? Can somebody explain the difference between a stereo mixer and a 4-bus mixer?
What do most small home studios use for setting up multiple hardware synths and other stereo line inputs.
I bought a Tapco Mix100 mixer but I'm having an issue with the recorded signal being louder on the Left stereo channel. I'm being told that I should avoid cheap mixers as the quality of the line signal will be degraded.
Mixer or patchbay?
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
unless you're using a lot of effects I would go with a mixer...stereo vs. 4 bus = 2 vs.4 output channels... 
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- Banned
- 487 posts since 14 Nov, 2006
If all you need is to simplify your patching, then route everything through patchbays. Patchbays make accessing any combination of i/o a simple matter of patching the points at the bay. Your gear remains permanently wired to the bay.
A mixer will add unnecessary electronics that you don't need. In addition, a good quality mixer will cost way more than a couple decent TRS patchbays and cables. I'm sure there's those that are going to say you can get a cheap mixer that will do fine, but think about it: any mixer is adding tons of electronics in the signal path, a patchbay adds NO electronics to the path. Now, assuming you like the current results you're getting, do you want to add unnecessary electronics into that chain?
I didn't think so.
A mixer will add unnecessary electronics that you don't need. In addition, a good quality mixer will cost way more than a couple decent TRS patchbays and cables. I'm sure there's those that are going to say you can get a cheap mixer that will do fine, but think about it: any mixer is adding tons of electronics in the signal path, a patchbay adds NO electronics to the path. Now, assuming you like the current results you're getting, do you want to add unnecessary electronics into that chain?
I didn't think so.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 163 posts since 31 Dec, 2004
thanks. I think I'll go with a patchbay. I'm going to need to buy a rack though, and I'm having a hard time finding a small desktop rack. Any suggestions? I'd like to be able to fit up to 3 racks at the most.
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- KVRAF
- 1894 posts since 19 Apr, 2006 from Montreal, Canada
How handy are you with tools? Rack components can be bought in any electronic supply store and it's a no-brainer to make a box out of particle board or plywood that fit exactly the room you've allocated for it. If you buy ready made, you'll have to compromise somewhere.
No, that wasn't me.
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- Banned
- 487 posts since 14 Nov, 2006
You can buy rack rail in any length from Middle Atlantic products.
http://www.middleatlantic.com/rackac/rail/rail.htm
If it's just for home/studio use, an SKB rack will do well.
http://www.middleatlantic.com/rackac/rail/rail.htm
If it's just for home/studio use, an SKB rack will do well.
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- KVRAF
- 8732 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
I'll second Where02190. Unless you're going to spend a decent amount on a mixer, you don't necessarily gain anything, and if you use most cheap mixers, you'll lose quality. Behringer Eq is awful and unusable, whereas companies like Soundcraft make acceptable Eqs on their budget range, but the Eq is still very questionable as compared to a good plugin Eq. If you compare the prices of a decent Eq plugin to most mixers...not too much difference in price, but the quality difference is large.
So you get other stuff on a mixer - aux loops. Again, some cheap mixers introduce quite alot of noise and have poor channel shielding or even internal PSUs that make all kinds of hum and interference. If you have even a little noise to start with, most FX units are going to seriously amplify that noise once you've done. And do you even use h/w FX units? If not, then an aux loop is wasted money and a wasted feature set.
A whole bunch of preamps? Personally I never used preamps. I used to use a 24channel desk with all the bells and whistles, yet the style of music I made, I never used vocals with mics etc. Don't use guitars or anything else, never once miced up a real drumset because a sampler always took care of drums for me. So I had a large bank of 24 preamps unused and unwanted, but paid for.
Inserts - definitely useful, as are all the busses and routing options. But I also had things like attenuation buttons on all channels - never once used them. Control room circuits etc - again, never used them - don't need to if you don't use vocals or real instruments. There's a whole bunch of stuff you get on a mixer that alot of people don't need or use. But you pay for the channels and the quality of the channels/Eq and shielding. And you don't get any of that with the majority of budget mixers.
Personally I do miss using a large mixer. I used to use it almost as an instrument for things like dub and some ambient-y type stuff. But I simply got used to working in a slightly different way for most other music and get by quite happily with a couple of patchbays for a fraction of the price. Everything is hooked up to your patchbay and your important sockets like soundcard inputs and expensive synth/FX unit outputs are not constantly being used and abused. You can get used to rendering things more often instead of running everything live, and it usually works OK for me. Sure, there are times when I would rather use a mixer, but TBH, a mixer would be a bit of a luxury to me at the moment. I couldn't use a cheap and crappy one, so I'd have to spend large again to get a decent 8-buss, and although I'd like one, simply can't rationalise the spend.
Things like compressors etc that you'd normally use on inserts can be used happily with patchbays too. As long as you have enough patchbay channels, you simply route straight forwardly in->out of the compressor via the patchbay, and can have every in-out of your compressors permanently hooked up. I had 3 patchbays - lost one somewhere in the move to NZ, and I really should get another one, but TBH I can get by with 2 times 24 channels. I don't have room to hook up things like the sidechains on the comps, but really who needs the sidechains anyway. Despite the crap you read in places like KvR by people who don't know any better, sidechains are rarely-used luxuries. Sidechains on gates are nice, but I've got gating galore in the digital world inside my PC already, and can't remember the last time I had my gates hooked up. And unless you pay good money to a top-end engineer who really knows what he's doing, using a sidechain on a compressor is usually a recipe for disaster with most amateur users. Whatever you read about sidechaining bass/kicks etc - if those people simply mixed better to start with, they wouldn't need to sidechain their bassline. (Ducks for cover...but true - sidechain useage is an amateur web myth places like KvR).
Save yourself some money and buy a decent (or two) patchbay. There are specific times when a mixer is a definite advantage - but usually not if you have some cheap crappy one. Even a 24channel Eurodesk Behringer one (which looks impressive, I admit) is a waste of money and all you'll gain is hissy channels and flabby bloated Eq that is better bypassed.
If you simply prefer running things live, or you expect to be using alot of h/w FX like compressors or fancy Eqs, or you mix very organic and less regimented styles like dub etc, then it could be a better idea to get a mixer - but please, don't rush out and buy any old cheap one; wait, save up and pay for a good one. A mixer can be a very large weak link in your recording chain. More so than even things like soundcards or monitors - there is always a way of compensating for bad monitors or bad outputs etc, but a bad mixer simply makes everything you do sound bad, and will colour everything. If all you want is amateur/hobbyist results, it's not a problem, but if you are serious about your output quality (whether to release or just for your own satisfaction) then a cheap mixer will be your worst buy.
You most likely will have to alter the way you work a bit with patchbays and no mixer...but it's not a hardship. I thought it would be and it turned out not to be at all. Maybe I was lucky because I got used to patchbays even with the mixers I used to use, but I can't see patchbays stunting anyone's work. Whereas a poor mixer will.
So you get other stuff on a mixer - aux loops. Again, some cheap mixers introduce quite alot of noise and have poor channel shielding or even internal PSUs that make all kinds of hum and interference. If you have even a little noise to start with, most FX units are going to seriously amplify that noise once you've done. And do you even use h/w FX units? If not, then an aux loop is wasted money and a wasted feature set.
A whole bunch of preamps? Personally I never used preamps. I used to use a 24channel desk with all the bells and whistles, yet the style of music I made, I never used vocals with mics etc. Don't use guitars or anything else, never once miced up a real drumset because a sampler always took care of drums for me. So I had a large bank of 24 preamps unused and unwanted, but paid for.
Inserts - definitely useful, as are all the busses and routing options. But I also had things like attenuation buttons on all channels - never once used them. Control room circuits etc - again, never used them - don't need to if you don't use vocals or real instruments. There's a whole bunch of stuff you get on a mixer that alot of people don't need or use. But you pay for the channels and the quality of the channels/Eq and shielding. And you don't get any of that with the majority of budget mixers.
Personally I do miss using a large mixer. I used to use it almost as an instrument for things like dub and some ambient-y type stuff. But I simply got used to working in a slightly different way for most other music and get by quite happily with a couple of patchbays for a fraction of the price. Everything is hooked up to your patchbay and your important sockets like soundcard inputs and expensive synth/FX unit outputs are not constantly being used and abused. You can get used to rendering things more often instead of running everything live, and it usually works OK for me. Sure, there are times when I would rather use a mixer, but TBH, a mixer would be a bit of a luxury to me at the moment. I couldn't use a cheap and crappy one, so I'd have to spend large again to get a decent 8-buss, and although I'd like one, simply can't rationalise the spend.
Things like compressors etc that you'd normally use on inserts can be used happily with patchbays too. As long as you have enough patchbay channels, you simply route straight forwardly in->out of the compressor via the patchbay, and can have every in-out of your compressors permanently hooked up. I had 3 patchbays - lost one somewhere in the move to NZ, and I really should get another one, but TBH I can get by with 2 times 24 channels. I don't have room to hook up things like the sidechains on the comps, but really who needs the sidechains anyway. Despite the crap you read in places like KvR by people who don't know any better, sidechains are rarely-used luxuries. Sidechains on gates are nice, but I've got gating galore in the digital world inside my PC already, and can't remember the last time I had my gates hooked up. And unless you pay good money to a top-end engineer who really knows what he's doing, using a sidechain on a compressor is usually a recipe for disaster with most amateur users. Whatever you read about sidechaining bass/kicks etc - if those people simply mixed better to start with, they wouldn't need to sidechain their bassline. (Ducks for cover...but true - sidechain useage is an amateur web myth places like KvR).
Save yourself some money and buy a decent (or two) patchbay. There are specific times when a mixer is a definite advantage - but usually not if you have some cheap crappy one. Even a 24channel Eurodesk Behringer one (which looks impressive, I admit) is a waste of money and all you'll gain is hissy channels and flabby bloated Eq that is better bypassed.
If you simply prefer running things live, or you expect to be using alot of h/w FX like compressors or fancy Eqs, or you mix very organic and less regimented styles like dub etc, then it could be a better idea to get a mixer - but please, don't rush out and buy any old cheap one; wait, save up and pay for a good one. A mixer can be a very large weak link in your recording chain. More so than even things like soundcards or monitors - there is always a way of compensating for bad monitors or bad outputs etc, but a bad mixer simply makes everything you do sound bad, and will colour everything. If all you want is amateur/hobbyist results, it's not a problem, but if you are serious about your output quality (whether to release or just for your own satisfaction) then a cheap mixer will be your worst buy.
You most likely will have to alter the way you work a bit with patchbays and no mixer...but it's not a hardship. I thought it would be and it turned out not to be at all. Maybe I was lucky because I got used to patchbays even with the mixers I used to use, but I can't see patchbays stunting anyone's work. Whereas a poor mixer will.
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
just curious, but he said he wanted to send all his hardware to his input on his card. I know you can use a patchbay for this, but face it you may find yourself with a lot of empty spaces if you only have a little hardware. With fx a patchbay can be set up nicely to be able insert along the chain. But with synths or the like with only outputs wouldn't the patchbay really turn into a breakout box? I realise a lot of people do use them a such, but it's a bit of waste imo. Perhaps I'm not understanding his needs enough, but it seems to me a simple homemade box might be better, depending on how many hardware units and what they are of course.
I completely agree about behringer mixers, they are too noisey...but imho a Mackie 1202 or 1402 might in the long run and be a wiser investment. They are not "cheap" or a poor mixer anyhow and may come in handy down the road....but again I might be missing his needs...me I'm happy I no longer have any patchbays...well my soundcard can act as one, or a mixer for that matter.
I completely agree about behringer mixers, they are too noisey...but imho a Mackie 1202 or 1402 might in the long run and be a wiser investment. They are not "cheap" or a poor mixer anyhow and may come in handy down the road....but again I might be missing his needs...me I'm happy I no longer have any patchbays...well my soundcard can act as one, or a mixer for that matter.
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
btw to the original poster I might have a patchbay you can have providing you're at least in the U.S. so I can ship it...
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- Banned
- 487 posts since 14 Nov, 2006
So do you have some sort of mutant singers with DI's in the backs of their heads.kritikon wrote:I used to use a 24channel desk with all the bells and whistles, yet the style of music I made, I never used vocals with mics etc.
I'm dying to know how your record someone singing without a mic through a preamp!!!!!!!!
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- KVRAF
- 8732 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
No. I never recorded singers at all. I hate vocals as a rule. Singers should mostly be strung up by their inflated egos, or preferably their gonads. That's what I meant - I don't record singers full stop, not that I record singers without mics. Although singers definitely sound better without mics IMO.
The only rare times I ever use any vocals are with ready done samples, and that's quite a rarity. I don't record anything that needs a mic.
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- Banned
- 487 posts since 14 Nov, 2006
I see, so you just leech off others hard work....kritikon wrote:
No. I never recorded singers at all. I hate vocals as a rule. Singers should mostly be strung up by their inflated egos, or preferably their gonads. That's what I meant - I don't record singers full stop, not that I record singers without mics. Although singers definitely sound better without mics IMO.
The only rare times I ever use any vocals are with ready done samples, and that's quite a rarity. I don't record anything that needs a mic.
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- KVRAF
- 12615 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
"I see, so you just leech off others hard work...."
have you ever used free software before? have you written much?
it isnt leeching, it's "putting to good use", making the author's time worth-while. if the author was doing things for profit, they should ensure profit and not make the content "leechable".
have you ever used free software before? have you written much?
it isnt leeching, it's "putting to good use", making the author's time worth-while. if the author was doing things for profit, they should ensure profit and not make the content "leechable".
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- Banned
- 487 posts since 14 Nov, 2006
Using free software and how much I write (which is obviously way more than you...) has nothing to do with using samples of others work. Do you pay royalties on the vocal samples? My guess is no.