How about a sample-mellotronizer?

[liqih]

Nice idea, some things could sound great, it's like the old custom tapes service.
One thing about all the free Mellotrons I've heard is that they don't emulate this attack sound. I heard Macca talking about it on BBC radio, about how you hit the keys quick and you get this sound. I thought it was just the acid damage talking, but then he demonstrated it and i recognised it from so many beatles/Moodies records.

You can get different sounds just by the way you press a key, since you're controlling how the tape comes into contact with the playback head. A soft touch will sound different on the attack than pressing the key quickly. But there is the instrument attack as well that only unlooped samples can come close to duplicating. For example, the MkII 3 Violins has the sound of the bows coming into contact with the strings at the beginning of the tapes. In order to loop a sample of a Mellotron tape, you have to chop off the beginning of the sample, thereby losing the spirit of the original intent.

ah, I didn't know about the attack thing, so the mellotron keys are not just an on off switch?

BTW the samples I had from Hollow Sun are looped but attack is preserved, the loop doesn't need to start from the begining

[taijiguy]

Nice idea, some things could sound great, it's like the old custom tapes service.
One thing about all the free Mellotrons I've heard is that they don't emulate this attack sound. I heard Macca talking about it on BBC radio, about how you hit the keys quick and you get this sound. I thought it was just the acid damage talking, but then he demonstrated it and i recognised it from so many beatles/Moodies records.

You can get different sounds just by the way you press a key, since you're controlling how the tape comes into contact with the playback head. A soft touch will sound different on the attack than pressing the key quickly. But there is the instrument attack as well that only unlooped samples can come close to duplicating. For example, the MkII 3 Violins has the sound of the bows coming into contact with the strings at the beginning of the tapes. In order to loop a sample of a Mellotron tape, you have to chop off the beginning of the sample, thereby losing the spirit of the original intent.

ah, I didn't know about the attack thing, so the mellotron keys are not just an on off switch?

BTW the samples I had from Hollow Sun are looped but attack is preserved, the loop doesn't
need to start from the begining

See this webpage for a graphical representation of how it works: http://members.aol.com/tronpage/tronhow.htm. It's really just a manually-engaged tape player with a pinch-roller and felt pad on the underside of each key. For in-depth info, Ken Leonard's website is the definitive source: http://www.kleonard.com/

Doesn't Hollow Sun have both looped and unlooped samples? I can see how the unlooped samples can have the instrument attack, but how can the looped samples have the instrument attack without a drastic change in the sound every time the loop restarts?

Just for comparison's sake, try these samples: http://www.leisureland.us/audio/mellotr ... mples.html

[Muzik 4 Machines]

Nice idea, some things could sound great, it's like the old custom tapes service.
One thing about all the free Mellotrons I've heard is that they don't emulate this attack sound. I heard Macca talking about it on BBC radio, about how you hit the keys quick and you get this sound. I thought it was just the acid damage talking, but then he demonstrated it and i recognised it from so many beatles/Moodies records.

You can get different sounds just by the way you press a key, since you're controlling how the tape comes into contact with the playback head. A soft touch will sound different on the attack than pressing the key quickly. But there is the instrument attack as well that only unlooped samples can come close to duplicating. For example, the MkII 3 Violins has the sound of the bows coming into contact with the strings at the beginning of the tapes. In order to loop a sample of a Mellotron tape, you have to chop off the beginning of the sample, thereby losing the spirit of the original intent.

by making a very short loop somewhere it's consistant and leaving some of the end for the release (like we did in the days to preserve memory on 4MB samplers)


ah, I didn't know about the attack thing, so the mellotron keys are not just an on off switch?

BTW the samples I had from Hollow Sun are looped but attack is preserved, the loop doesn't
need to start from the begining

See this webpage for a graphical representation of how it works: http://members.aol.com/tronpage/tronhow.htm. It's really just a manually-engaged tape player with a pinch-roller and felt pad on the underside of each key. For in-depth info, Ken Leonard's website is the definitive source: http://www.kleonard.com/

Doesn't Hollow Sun have both looped and unlooped samples? I can see how the unlooped samples can have the instrument attack, but how can the looped samples have the instrument attack without a drastic change in the sound every time the loop restarts?

Just for comparison's sake, try these samples: http://www.leisureland.us/audio/mellotr ... mples.html

[MitchK1989]

samples don't just loop from start to end over and over again when they're looped samples. They have an unlooped attack portion, a looped sustain portion, then an unlooped release portion. The point being that it doesn't sound "quite" as realistic in the sustain, but still has the proper attack and release, the sound can last for well over 8 seconds (without needing anywhere near 8 seconds of sample).

So the sample plays the attack portion, loops the sustain portion over and over while you still hold the key, then plays the release portion after you let go... ok?

Mind you, mellotron samples obviously wouldn't have a release portion... And because of the tuning instabilities and such in the sustain portions of the real mellotron I wouldn't want looped samples... It has nothing to do with the attack. Unlooped samples means you still have the original 8 second limit though, so it's a trade-off.

[duncanparsons]

I'd code it with a chance for the head not to be disengaged properly, so you'd get a fast but quiet zip of the tape winding backwards to the beginning!

..then you'd have a release!

DSP

[thoshu]

[taijiguy]

samples don't just loop from start to end over and over again when they're looped samples. They have an unlooped attack portion, a looped sustain portion, then an unlooped release portion. The point being that it doesn't sound "quite" as realistic in the sustain, but still has the proper attack and release, the sound can last for well over 8 seconds (without needing anywhere near 8 seconds of sample).

So the sample plays the attack portion, loops the sustain portion over and over while you still hold the key, then plays the release portion after you let go... ok?

Mind you, mellotron samples obviously wouldn't have a release portion... And because of the tuning instabilities and such in the sustain portions of the real mellotron I wouldn't want looped samples... It has nothing to do with the attack. Unlooped samples means you still have the original 8 second limit though, so it's a trade-off.

Thanks for the explanation. And all this time I thought it was a beginning to end loop.

[liqih]

Mind you, mellotron samples obviously wouldn't have a release portion... And because of the tuning instabilities and such in the sustain portions of the real mellotron I wouldn't want looped samples... It has nothing to do with the attack. Unlooped samples means you still have the original 8 second limit though, so it's a trade-off.

still the sample is a snapshop of those instabilities
taken once, where in the real mellotron they may change at each note, so far with the looped samples (like the Mellotronix set) the 3 seconds loop captures the sound and you may add extra and *ever different* small modulations ( in EVE 2 for istance you have the fractal LFO and other vibrato and overdrive effects)

the 8" limit basically affects the way you play, so it's something which may depends on the MIDI part

[liqih]

I'd code it with a chance for the head not to be disengaged properly, so you'd get a fast but quiet zip of the tape winding backwards to the beginning!

..then you'd have a release!

DSP

two releases!, <wink>

[Meloday]

[emdot_ambient]

The 8 second length on Mellotrons is something of a misnomer. True, the tapes for each note were about 8 seconds long, but let's say you press a note on a real Mellotron, and hold it for 6 seconds, then you let go . . . what happens is the tape then starts to rewind. If you press the note again before the tape has rewound completely, you will then: 1) start playing the sound in the middle of the sustain portion without the attack, and 2) you'll have far less than 8 seconds of hold left over.

I have no clue how fast Mellotrons rewind their tapes, but if you've held a cord, and then start playing a 1/16th note staccato arpeggio . . . the tape's not going to go all the way back, and in-between each note you play it will rewind a little bit.

Whereas with samplers, every note will "rewind" all the way back to the attack (the Sample Start position) as soon as you let go of a note. To get a real Mellotronizer feel, you'd have to keep track of how long each note is held to calculate where the new Sample Start location should be, and therefore, how long a sustain you have left.

[liqih]

right ea, and I've read that the rewind time is about and no more than one second, possibly less, so yes I would use a timer per key, anyway I also read about mellotron recording tecnique using overdub to avoid the short notes,

but to me the real cool of the mellotron are these points:

1) real instrument recording on tape
2) tube+tape saturation and band limiting
3) each key got its own sound

BTW can anyone suggest some mellotron solo parts to check?
except Strawberry Fields intro!

[emdot_ambient]

Oh, one more point after looking at the "How it works" link:

The head-block, in front of the capstan holds the 35 tape heads (one for each note) that reproduce the sound. This block can move left or right and is used to select one of three sounds recorded on each tape.

I have read that some users would somehow move the tapes only half-way, so they'd get a blend of two different sounds . . . but that this was risky and could cause tape jams.

But from a sampling point of view I think it brings up interesting possibilities.

[liqih]

Oh, one more point after looking at the "How it works" link:

The head-block, in front of the capstan holds the 35 tape heads (one for each note) that reproduce the sound. This block can move left or right and is used to select one of three sounds recorded on each tape.

I have read that some users would somehow move the tapes only half-way, so they'd get a blend of two different sounds . . . but that this was risky and could cause tape jams.

But from a sampling point of view I think it brings up interesting possibilities.

AFAIR what you got was a mix of those adiacent sounds but with lower volume and less brighness, maybe as in "eveything mellotron" the mix was not constant but with some modulation, <grin>

[alogie]

BTW can anyone suggest some mellotron solo parts to check?
except Strawberry Fields intro!

"Watcher of the Skies" by Genesis.