Mixer or patchbay?

[BertKoor]

How hard would it be to add a dial to attenuate/amplify the signal before the output?

It's a lot more than a dial....

Not nescessarily, if you only need attennuation:

I think I'll invest in a soldering kit. Any specific type of soldering irons or brands I should look out for?

Most soldering irons are virtually indestructable when taken good care of. Weller's are well respected here. Pencil-shaped types are what you want, 15 Watts is sufficient for simple stuff.

You may go for second-hand on eBay, but you'll pay as much for the shipping as for the item itself. Radio Shack or any electronics / DIY store around the corner should have a 15W or 25W soldering iron for only $7.99. That's the type I bought 25 years ago, it still works fine.

[parke02]

Heya parke02,

I'm assuming you meant emu 1212m and not 121m (its just i know emu released another wave of soundcards which i;m not famalier with)

Dont forget you have SP/dif and Adat digital inputs. For example you could buy the "behinger ultra gain pro" and have 8 more inputs in addition to the 2 analog mono on the emu(theres also a trick to convert this into a real stereo signal and not dual mono, if you have any stereo output synths). but please try to search for diffrent companys/products - the behinger is just an example and i havent really heard good things about behinger in the past.

Theres also the option of adding the emu audio dock.(altho yes its still bloody expensive)..every now and again i will trawl ebay for one but without luck so far.

anyway all the best

edit: actually , you know..for the purposes you describe indeed a patch bay will be more suitable and less costly...but if you feel in the future you may want to either -

1. use a microphone or guitar (the analog input levels will be too low, if you plug straight in) you will still need a pre-amp to boost the signal to ensure an acceptable signal to noise ratio.

2.Incorporate external hardware (for example , setting up a buss in cubase so that your audio runs through an external hardware unit and back into cubase) you will need the additional i/O.

Hi Anti-hero,

Yea, typo.. I have the 1212m. Thanks for the tips. I guess when the time comes I'll invest in a proper mixer.

I looked for some alternatives to the behringer unit but couldn't really find much. What would you categorize it as?

I noticed on the EMU website that they sell the Microdock as an addon to the 1212m. Looks pretty useful. I could definitely use another set of midi i/o, but I'd want more than 4 1/4" inputs.

What exactly is a real stereo signal?

[parke02]

How hard would it be to add a dial to attenuate/amplify the signal before the output?

It's a lot more than a dial....

Not nescessarily, if you only need attennuation:

I guess all I really need is attenuation. I want to be able to patch the output of my audio interface into the box and be able to control the level going out to my monitors.

[Hink]

How hard would it be to add a dial to attenuate/amplify the signal before the output?

It's a lot more than a dial....

Not nescessarily, if you only need attennuation:

edit , misread the OP's post...Bertkoor is correct

[kritikon]

where02190 wrote:
wannabee

The point of the first part of kritikon's post went right over your head, didn't it?

Helpful Lifestyle Hint: If you must wear mirrored shades, next time buy the kind with the mirroring on the outside surface.

Yeah, it must be dark there under the bridge with his shades on.

To Where02...to anyone who wants to be an engineer, then good on them, I hope they're succesful in their endeavours. Sounds to me like you wannabe one also, and feel quite superior about it. Well...everyone to their own goals and dreams, but they're not mine. I'm pretty pleased with my own career TBH, and releasing music was only ever a passing fad to me. Used to piss off my partners in music no end...they'd be all full of energy and go-go-go and did all the running around, and I just couldn't get myself excited. I remember the first contract we got...I distinctly remember feeling something along the lines of; "oh no - I can feel the start of all the fun of making music now leeching out of the process". And I was right - I never once enjoyed getting releases out - the whole process ruined it for me. I still get enjoyment out of making music, but I really don't have the ego to have really put any effort into making music a career - it still doesn't interest me. I hope the guys I started out with made it successful (haven't kept in touch for many a year now - they had the burning ambition, and you need it to even try.

On a side note though...it's no great thing to be an engineer. Every one I ever met didn't have two matches to rub together and lived in squalid bedsits, worked daft hours and had no life (at least not to my criteria for a decent life). I felt sorry for some of those engineers - some had been at it for years and were good at what they did, but even years ago I earned far more than they did - FFS as a junior nurse I had a studio 3 times the size of any engineer I ever met, which is ridiculous - they couldn't even own the tools of their trade - had to rely on downtime in the studios. Sad really. And I don't even have a flash job now. Maybe they simply got their enjoyment from being in a tradse they wanted to be in - wouldn't ever satisfy me though. I get far more satisfaction from the career I do now. I feel like I actually contribute to society etc and have time off, money for a few toys, time for still making my own music without deadlines and I get to work with a 90% female workforce.


So if your (I think it was) jibe about being a wannabe engineer makes you feel good, it's your problem. it doesn't add up to being anything special in my books. Do you know how to resuscitate dead people? No...personally I get great satisfaction from the odd time I do and they survive. Or would I rather be poor, live in a bedsit and make mixes for wannabe musicians with no social skills or graces? Hmmm...difficult one that.


And to Parke02...you may not have many external h/w units now, but you may well do some day soon if you continue with music. A patchbay can be a godsend even if you only have 2 or 3 units, whether that be synths or FX etc. personally I'd rather wear out a patchbay than my soundcard sockets, or FX nuoit sockets or synth sockets. A decent patchbay will have far sturdier jack sockets than most h/w, and will take alot more abuse. I've got various old synths that now have dodgy sockets from the days before I bought any patchbays. Some are not that old either. My Wavestation has dodgy A/B sockets, although the C/D sockets so far are OK (will go one day, as I now route everything through the alternate outputs instead of the mains, and W/Ss notoriously weren't sturdily put together). One of my old Junos has a dodgy L out, some of my Korg MS sockets need some attention (a patchbay wouldn't really help with that though...) and some of my older FX units have to be jiggled a bit to get a good connection. My patchbays are maybe 10 years old now and still good as ever.


The other thing you need to consider maybe is a patchbay also lets you route other things into your PC - if you ever want to patch in a portable CD player, a cassette deck, even odd things like old 4-tracks or whatever - a patchbay always makes that easier. You mentioned scrabbling about at the back of things...it doesn't matter how few times you do it - it's always a pain to do it. Patchbays get rid of that. There's the odd time I want to do something strange like route a subgroup out into a particular unit, or even out into my old digital8track for some particular lo-fi type effect and it is so much easier with a patchbay. I've even been known to route things out into cassette players to get some cheap and nasty tape sat - takes a while to sort out if you have to reroute all the physical in/outs.

[kritikon]

And you mentioned lack of space for a rack...they don't necessarily take up much space. You can either buy or make a rack unit big enough to house your PC, soundcard breakout and a patchbay and have it all in one handy cabinet. In fact racks are great space-saving things. Most rack units are only one space, and you can get a 10-unit rack for cheap money. Get a single tall-standing rack and you can quite happily fit a whole studio in it. I have done in the past. I don't particularly like rack mixers, but I did that once, and it was amazing how little space the whole studio took up. You can't do that with a 24channel, but it wouldn't be as much fun anyway No point having a big mixer unless you show it off.

I've had 4 FX units, 3 comps, a multigate, sampler, a small mixer, several synth racks, amp, DAT, cassette, several bare trays for small non-rack units that nevertheless will stand on a rack tray, drum machine on top and room for 3rd party add-ons in a large rack that's smaller than even a small PC desk. Tall, mind you, but small footprint. And if you put anything, absolutely anything in a rack, then a patchbay is almost an essential. Even if the rack is on castors - have you ever tried :

A) turning it round without it falling on top of you
B) unpatching the right cables in the dark
c)patching the right cables into the right units without blowing something up
C) doing any of the above without ruining the moment and in a dark studio, all the while off your bonce?

Not easy

At least with a patchbay you don't electrocute yourself.

[Hink]

kritikon, you realise most of your arguments for the patchbay also make the argument for a mixing board

[Hink]

btw I'm not sure you're correct about the quality of the jacks on patchbays, in fact the opposite is true thses days imo...though most do supply you several replacement cards...there are exceptions of course, but likely consumer grade is going to get you a lot of cheap plastic...

[kritikon]

kritikon, you realise most of your arguments for the patchbay also make the argument for a mixing board HiHi

True...

But there's always room for both. In fact with a decent sized mixer, a patchbay is also almost essential.

btw I'm not sure you're correct about the quality of the jacks on patchbays, in fact the opposite is true thses days imo...though most do supply you several replacement cards...there are exceptions of course, but likely consumer grade is going to get you a lot of cheap plastic...

Really? I don't know...I bought some (I think) Kelsey Accoustics or somesuch patchbays; very very sturdy units. I've not had one go loose on me yet. Admittedly I did make up a Tandy one once...and yeah, the sockets are pretty poor, but I only made that up as a cable storage device. I think it cost something like 10 quid at the time to make a 12 x 12 patchbay, which means I can store 24 cables in it. If you've never tried it, it's a superb idea. No coiling of cables, they're all visible readily, easy to get at/put away, and even the jacks are stored away from smoke etc inside the sockets (you can store them double-ended if you're paranoid about keeping them clean. I think I'll make up some more one day. All you do is hang the patchbay up on a wall maybe 5 or 6' high and simply insert all your cables and let them dangle (oo-er...)

[nuffink]

Not nescessarily, if you only need attennuation:

You wanna be careful with passive pre-amps (pot in a box). The output impedence on that thing is variable depending on wiper position. At the very least it needs an output buffer.

[parke02]

And you mentioned lack of space for a rack...they don't necessarily take up much space. You can either buy or make a rack unit big enough to house your PC, soundcard breakout and a patchbay and have it all in one handy cabinet. In fact racks are great space-saving things. Most rack units are only one space, and you can get a 10-unit rack for cheap money. Get a single tall-standing rack and you can quite happily fit a whole studio in it. I have done in the past. I don't particularly like rack mixers, but I did that once, and it was amazing how little space the whole studio took up. You can't do that with a 24channel, but it wouldn't be as much fun anyway No point having a big mixer unless you show it off.

I've had 4 FX units, 3 comps, a multigate, sampler, a small mixer, several synth racks, amp, DAT, cassette, several bare trays for small non-rack units that nevertheless will stand on a rack tray, drum machine on top and room for 3rd party add-ons in a large rack that's smaller than even a small PC desk. Tall, mind you, but small footprint. And if you put anything, absolutely anything in a rack, then a patchbay is almost an essential. Even if the rack is on castors - have you ever tried :

A) turning it round without it falling on top of you
B) unpatching the right cables in the dark
c)patching the right cables into the right units without blowing something up
C) doing any of the above without ruining the moment and in a dark studio, all the while off your bonce?

Not easy

At least with a patchbay you don't electrocute yourself.

Lol.. Yea, space really is that tight. I just recently cleared out a bunch of crap to make room for a jx-8p keyboard. If I bough a rack it would have to go in the middle of the room. I refuse to rearrange things since I'll be moving in 1/2 a year anyway. A patchbay and rack are definitely on top of my list of things to buy as soon as I move.

[where02190]

Not nescessarily, if you only need attennuation:

You wanna be careful with passive pre-amps (pot in a box). The output impedence on that thing is variable depending on wiper position. At the very least it needs an output buffer.

Impedance mismatch, frequency and phase issues....if you think you can simply put a potentiometer inline with your outputs and nothing but the volume with change, you have a lot to learn about the basics of electronics and audio.

[parke02]

[quote="anti--hero"theres also a trick to convert this into a real stereo signal and not dual mono, if you have any stereo output synths[/quote]

Oh right, you're talking about how the inputs in the patchmix are dual mono channels instead of a single stereo channel. Yea thats annoying. Whats the trick?

[vurt]

I wannabe be better at my craft everday, I wannabe smarter every day,

Audio isn't your craft, it's your hobby.

and that is why we become master craftsmen while youre left makin the tea.

[Hink]

I wannabe be better at my craft everday, I wannabe smarter every day,

Audio isn't your craft, it's your hobby.

and that is why we become master craftsmen while youre left makin the tea.

I'm gonna take that as a compliment thanx vurt