Flintlock Juno-106 versus the real thing.

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Wow kritikon, all I can say is that much of what you find "useless", bollocks, "unmusical" etc., others, including me, often find endlessly usable. I don't think there's anything weak about the Juno-106, and I think that people usually have weird ideas about how analog synths "should" sound like.

No idea really why you feel you need to actually -complain- about the Juno-106's sound or features that you don't find useful :). I often find features in many synths "unusable" for me as well, and by far most synths I've used could do a whole lot more or different stuff than what I needed and could produce sounds that don't interest me one bit, but with lots of tweaking I get the sounds I personally want from a synth and I'm happy with them. Juno-106 is one of those synths that don't really sound like any other synth and that could give me specific kinds of sounds that can endlessly satisfy me. Same goes for many other synths.
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Claudio Monteverdi

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By the way, anyone who is after the plug-in can find it in this thread. Thanks to dreaddd for sharing.
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Analogue or digital – which is better? There's only one way to find out... FI-I-IGHT!!!

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SampleScience wrote:Wohoo! BIG differences in the sounds! The original Juno is more detailed & "creamy" I would say than the emulation.
That extra detail is the actual filter sweep; hence the title of the mp3 and the purpose of the whole demonstration. Surely the Flintlock VSTi can do a filter sweep, right? Otherwise it's a pretty weak emulation indeed...

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Yagushi wrote:
SampleScience wrote:Wohoo! BIG differences in the sounds! The original Juno is more detailed & "creamy" I would say than the emulation.
That extra detail is the actual filter sweep; hence the title of the mp3 and the purpose of the whole demonstration. Surely the Flintlock VSTi can do a filter sweep, right? Otherwise it's a pretty weak emulation indeed...
That sweep comes in after the note has been released, the plug-in does not behave in this way. I reconstructed the patch as best I could, but will experiment further.
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Analogue or digital – which is better? There's only one way to find out... FI-I-IGHT!!!

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kritikon wrote:
people who don't see why the junos are sought after are missing the point. The point is that the parameter ranges on the junos are all sweet spot, and they have a slider for every function. You could let your dog program it and he'd still be unable to come up with a "bad" sound.
I've let my dog program it several times, because I always struggle to come up with anything memorable on a 106. The dog's patches weren't its bollocks either. :P


parameter ranges all sweet spot? How come the filter dies out at anything below approx 1/8 and does almost nothing for the top half. Do you seriously like the sound of the 106 filter res when you turn it up anywhere near full? You actually like that horrible unmusical whine it makes? As far as I'm concerned at least 50% or more of the settings on the 106 are plain bland or simply don't do anything useful. And as for the unison (which should be the one thing that might actually make an analogue have some power) is absolutely useless. The DCOs obviously aren't stable enough to do nothing in unison, instead they step around nastily and obviously. Absolutely unlike any decent VCO synth with unison, and absolutely unuseable. The stupid LFO control on the joystick/wheel thing...it's either on or off. Useless. The envelopes - attack won't go nearly long enough, the decay is flabby and slow compared even to other Roland gear such as the 101/202s. The filter sounds musical only in the lower mids/mids in a very fine range. It almost does nothing in the higher octaves.

I'll still maintain that most who rave about the 106 haven't played with a serious analogue poly with character. Jupiters were quite nice...I like those (in a different league to 106s though), ProphetV...do me a favour - you can't for one second believe a 106 can be spoken of in the same sentence as one of those. Even Roland's own alternative cheapos were better. JX3p for example - much more character and a little bit of oomph in the filter. Any of the JX range. Even the pathetic Korg Poly6 sounded richer than a 106. I can only think of JenSX synths that were any worse than 106s. The AlphaJunos had serious shortcomings, but they were at least capable of quite a wide range of sound. I've still got my 106 only because it's almost unsellable here. One dead DCO and who would buy it anyway? I'll use almost any decent VSTi in place of the 106. It's just bland and dull. Seriously...it's a better ashtray holder than a synth.

I'm being subjectively objective here ( :hihi: ). I'm actually an analogue nut. Used to collect all kinds of synths, and still have a few that I never got rid of and probably won't. And the 106 is probably the single worst buy I ever made for anything analogue (the little 606 drum machine I bought along with a 303 once was a poor buy, but at least it only cost a few quid). For 350 quid (the going rate at the time) I wasted my money and should have had the sense to buy something else. I kept hold of it just for nostalgia sake, as the 106 was my first analogue poly. But nostalgia is all it's good for. If a 106 is the only analogue you've ever owned, of course you'll defend it, but believe me there are any number of better ones around. It doesn't have character apart from the acknowledged chorus. Roland choruses were always distinctive. The synth itself has only novelty value. Sure it was the only synth of its time to have sysex for slider control, but sysex is a very unweildy way of controlling anything. I used to automate it via Cubasev1.0, and it was a royal pain in the arse, even when you figure out your own sysex map for it. There are other better synths of the 80s that have midi control, and most modern analogues will let you automate them more easily.
Quote from Vintagesynth.com:

"The Juno-106 is one of the most loved and used synthesizers by professionals and hobbyists alike! William Ørbit, Uberzone, Norman Cook (Fatboy Slim), Autechre, BT, Vince Clarke, Moby, 808 State, Underworld, Leftfield, Fluke, Josh Wink, Todd Terry, Depeche Mode, Eat Static, Biosphere, The Prodigy, The Shamen, Bushflange, Cirrus, Astral Projection, Apollo 440, Faithless, Union Jack, Computer Controlled, Pet Shop Boys, Sneaker Pimps, Erasure, Freddy Fresh, Rabbit in the Moon, Kevin Saunderson, Jimmy Edgar, Laurent Garnier, Vangelis, and the Chemical Brothers have used this synth extensively! It belongs in your studio! "

Obviously anyone is entitled to their opinion, just wanted to point out yours is in grave minority. The Juno kicks a**, lame soft-emus don't.
"If less is more, just think of how much more, more will be".

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quote from vintagesynth.com
"The VL-1 is analog, it's tiny, it has a built-in speaker and a useless built-in calculator. The synth itself is quite small, light-weight and portable when running on batteries. The keys are unreliable and cheap soft buttons with absolutely no natural feel, response, aftertouch or velocity. The VL-1 was succeeded by the VL-10 (same spec, smaller case) and VL-5 (4-note polyphonic version with a useless bar-code reader). Strangely, the simple cheesy sounds of the VL-Tone have been used by Apollo 440, Devo, the Talking Heads, the Cars, Dee-Lite, Sting, Stevie Wonder, Vince Clarke, Beastie Boys, The Human League, Trio, White Town, and Bill Nelson. "
I have no doubt the real deal is great stuff. :) The posted examples sound better than the SE plug for sure, and to your point; a reputation is generally deserved, at least in part. But to call the opinion a "grave" minority might be oversimplifying things? Because a synth was used doesn't mean it was the best thing ever, just the best thing available, and that for a myriad reasons. I like the sound, but it doesn't bowl me over. Of course, as you mentioned with opinions - horses for courses!

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I don't know, so I admit I'm only guessing, but I strongly suspect many of those acts quoted in Vintagesynth have long since gone on to better synths. They may well have used 106s because we all start out somwhere, and as I already mentioned, 106s are still an affordable way into analogue synths for the first-timers(i.e. the cheapest). I very much doubt they extensively use them any longer.
In the same way Korg M1s are no longer extensively used. Why would you when you can afford a top of the range EMU sampler, or Kontakt, or Halion etc with the finest set of samples and some quality h/w reverbs etc. Many people no doubt still own their M1s...there were alot made, so there are alot out there. Almost any S&S synth released in the past 10 years leaves an M1 standing in terms of patches, FX, sequencing power, RAM, keyboard action...anything you care to name. Same applies with 106s and other analogues. If all you can afford is a 106, then go for it and use it well. It's useable, I suppose.

Here's the acid test. If any 106 owners actually had the money in hand to buy a poly analogue of choice, whether that be an old one such as a ProphetV right up to a brand spanking new Alesis Andromeda or Analogue Solutions or whatever...do you really think any of them would buy the 106 again instead?

I can tell you I definitely would buy some of the other analogues I either have or have since got rid of. I'd actively buy an MS10, 20 or 50 again, I'd actively buy anything above a CS30 again, I'd even choose to rebuy a 202 or 101 again. If I had in hand the money for another 106 in good nick (and actually I could easily afford another one right now...my old one is dying so I could rationalise buying one if I wanted - the missus wouldn't even object, as I could persuade her it'd make me eternally happy and in her debt). But I won't. I'd rather buy something digital even like a Roland Fantom rather than waste money on another 106.


Be honest...none of you would pick a 106 again if you had the money for a decent alternative.

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And don't get all defensive. You buy what you buy, and there's a tendency to defend that waste of money. I wasted my own money on one all those years ago. I've bought other thing...example: a Behringer Composer. At the time it's all I could afford and I desperately wanted a compressor. And for the cheap price you get a gate and a limiter thrown in. And it was the biggest waste of money of anything I think I ever bought. I'm big enough to admit I wasted my money. I bought it on impulse and because I couldn't afford better at the time - if only I'd waited though. It sits there in a box in the garage and hasn't been used for nearly 10 years; the moment I could afford a better comp, I got one, and never looked back. I'll still defend Behringer for some of their gear too...some of it is very very good for the price. The Composer is OK for the price, but bloody hell, any engineer or whatever would have to be tone deaf before he'd use one of those things on a mix or master...and that's exactly what they are/were designed and sold for. I bought one, I bought badly. I bought a 106, I bought badly. And I'm grown up enough to know I could have spent my (at the time) hard-earned money better. Nobody to blame but myself. But I'm not going to defend to the world that the 106 or the Composer are great tools just because I bought one.

I'm really not trying to be condescending or anything like that. At KvR there are alot of starters, or simply people who can't afford the flash stuff. But the tendency here is to defend anything you bought...it's a natural tendency. When you've bought enough gear over the years you tend to lose that defensiveness. You've bought lots of good gear and believe you me, we've all bought lots of average or plain bad gear. I've lost track of how many times I've been blinded by gear lust and thrown away hundreds of quid a time on complete rubbish. You only learn the hard way. And I was prone to all the myths too (they weren't web myths in those days, cos there wasn't one :hihi: ) but the web makes myths a whole lot easier.

Back in my day, 106s were sought after by exactly people like me. Starting out, couldn't afford a Jupiter8 or whatever, so we made do with 106s. It was the only poly analogue I could afford at the time, so I went for it, as did others. For many a year many small bands uswed them alot. It wasn't through choice though, and you forget that when you see eulogies on places like Vintagesynth. You think all small bands starting out had money or access to flash studios. They didn't and don't today. If you got an advance, it usually wouldn't even cover a decent single piece of new gear and definitely no more than one day in any studio that might have a few analogue synths. Those advances were carefully calculated to cover the cost of a decent engineering job on ready done songs - not to cover a few days playing around with nice synths in some flash studio waiting for inspiration to strike. Which is why 106s were used so often for many singles etc. Because that's all they had, not because that's what they wanted to use.

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I don't really have time to read all you wrote, sorry, but as for the artists mentioned moving onto "better" synths, or buying Juno-106 just because it's cheap, that's simply wrong. Many of them have used it in albums much after they became famous as well as much after Juno-106 even went out of production, and use them to this day. That includes William Orbit, Union Jack, Astral Projection, Cirrus, Laurent Garnier, just to name a few.
As for debates about sound, I prefer to listen to and to use synths rather than compare or judge them or list all their flaws and cons and pros.
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Claudio Monteverdi

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Modeler wrote:
Yagushi wrote:
SampleScience wrote:Wohoo! BIG differences in the sounds! The original Juno is more detailed & "creamy" I would say than the emulation.
That extra detail is the actual filter sweep; hence the title of the mp3 and the purpose of the whole demonstration. Surely the Flintlock VSTi can do a filter sweep, right? Otherwise it's a pretty weak emulation indeed...
That sweep comes in after the note has been released, the plug-in does not behave in this way. I reconstructed the patch as best I could, but will experiment further.
Isn't this sweeping effect just the VCF envelope doing its thing? If the VSTi can't replicate this behavior in the slightest, then I stand by my statement that it's a very poor emulation...
:wink:

If I could get it to download from those links that dreaddd posted, I would give it a spin... Anyone willing to upload it to a slightly more reliable site like RapidShare?

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As for debates about sound, I prefer to listen to and to use synths rather than compare or judge them or list all their flaws and cons and pros.
A standard defense. And a silly one.


So what do you think I bought all of my present and former synths for, exactly? because I think they look pretty against my curtains? Or to stop the syth stands feeling lonely?

I listen to and use my synths too...duh! And some of them sound good and some simply sound crap.

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"Defense"? I don't know what you're talking about :) and I don't know why you use synths you think sound like crap.
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Claudio Monteverdi

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So let me get this straight. If I want to get one of you guys to do something, all I have to do is get some lawyer to write you a threatening letter, and you'll do whatever the letter says? I don't even need a court order? Wow!

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I sold mine. :( (Still have the JX-3P though!)

Here's a pic of me fixing a broken slider... I actually managed to remove a bit of metal that was causing a short and reassemble it! :o

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Hehe, I sorta love these kritikon's J106 rants :)

106 was always a cheap consumer synth but I still find it my go-to synth for sequenced bass. I have plenty of synths (analog and digital) but the 106 just makes the best synthpop bass among them. It simply works and sits in the mix well - and has plenty of lowend. I rarely crank up its resonance though and agree that unison is pretty much useless.

Granted, Juno's chorus is a big part of its sound, and I actually got the Boss CE300 so that I can use that chorus on my other synths as well.

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