Nuffink, thanks for this information. You're awesome! One question regarding what you wrote above- where do Mixolydian and Locrian fit into this?nuffink wrote:OK.
If you take what I've posted so far to it's logical conclusion you'll realise that you have 2 scales based upon the parallel (beginning on the same root) Ionian and Lydian modes which can be played over any major 7th chords and 3 scales based upon the parallel Dorian, Phrygian and Aolian modes which can be played over any minor 7th chords.
How to use modes in chord progressions?
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- KVRAF
- 7540 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.
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- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
Locrian is the standard mode played over a half-diminished (min7b5) chord, although many jaaathers will play the Locrian #2 since it has no avoid note(minor 9th).
The Mixolydian is the stock mode to play over a dominant 7th chord. However here things get interesting. If you play (for instance) G Mixolydian over a G7 chord you're anouncing major key tonality loud and clear. However the inherent dissonance of the tritone in a dominant chord means that you can get away with many different chord scales over the dominant. For instance the diatonic chord formed on the fifth degree of the melodic minor scale is a 7b13 and this might seem the obvious choice to indicate melodic minor tonality. Most jaaathers though would probably drop the fifth from the chord and play the so-called altered scale over the chord.
There are certain conventions though. Sus chords take the Mixolydian. Substitute Dominants take the Lydian Dominant. Any V7 in a minor context takes the Altered. Remember these are conventions, not rules.
The best thing I can do is point you in Marc Sabatella's direction... http://www.outsideshore.com/school/musi ... /index.htm for an extensive list of what scales can be played over what chords.
The Mixolydian is the stock mode to play over a dominant 7th chord. However here things get interesting. If you play (for instance) G Mixolydian over a G7 chord you're anouncing major key tonality loud and clear. However the inherent dissonance of the tritone in a dominant chord means that you can get away with many different chord scales over the dominant. For instance the diatonic chord formed on the fifth degree of the melodic minor scale is a 7b13 and this might seem the obvious choice to indicate melodic minor tonality. Most jaaathers though would probably drop the fifth from the chord and play the so-called altered scale over the chord.
There are certain conventions though. Sus chords take the Mixolydian. Substitute Dominants take the Lydian Dominant. Any V7 in a minor context takes the Altered. Remember these are conventions, not rules.
The best thing I can do is point you in Marc Sabatella's direction... http://www.outsideshore.com/school/musi ... /index.htm for an extensive list of what scales can be played over what chords.
Now with improved MIDI jitter!
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- KVRAF
- 13442 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
Fwiw, my approach on using modes on whatever chords (unless they are really bound inside a progression sort of defining the mode more or less rigorously):
I have a look at the chord and then compare with the modes that may fit (basically that's just exactly the same what nuffink described). The most common ones are already stored in both my head and fingers.
In addition, I may just experiment with all sorts of stuff.
As an example:
A plain minor7 chord (no further option notes used). What mode to use? There's several. The most "classic" sounding one might be natural minor (aka aeolian). But it's got that b6 in it, which is sometimes (no, even most often) referred to as an "avoid" note. Yet, players such as Miles Davis and George Benson seem to get away with that just fine, mostly by using it as a passing note only, rather than as a target note.
Another idea would be to use dorian. This has no avoid notes per se, but the 6th may occasionally clash with the 7th nonetheless. Plus, it sounds less "functional" but more "open" (in lack of better words).
Then, another idea would be to use phrygian. This is even introducing 2 avoid notes (b6 and b9). Certainly not what you need for "normal" stuff, but one may like the kind of weird character.
Yet another idea would be to use harmonic or melodic minor. Both of them don't even contain all of the basic chord notes anymore, the 7th is now a major 7th. Still, a lot of jazz players are putting melodic minor to good use over a minor 7th chord, probably because of the nice resolution of the maj7th to the root.
Of course, at this point things become unclear, as there's no "rule" such as "use whatever scale that contains all the chord notes" anymore. We're straight in phrasing, outside, chromatic and whatever territory already.
And there's even a whole lot more scales that probably could be used.
The same goes for any chord type.
A favourite one for at least two sort of treatments is the dom7 chord. Classically, one might use mixolydian over it. Sounds the most "inside" solution and it's also closest to blues pentatonic stuff (which can be used as another, non-modal option). But then, the 4th isn't exactly welcome all the time. That's why a lot of players may use mixolydian #11 (a term I prefer over lydian b7 because it still has some connection to the mixolydian/dominant character by the naming).
In the end it might be the best idea to just experiment with all sorts of scales over all sorts of chords, starting with those that have the least "offending" (avoid) notes.
Btw, when it comes to modal scales over whatever chords, things are a bit different than when just exploring scalar chords. When you learn about chord/scale relationships, you will defenitely stumble over the already mentioned "avoid notes". When looking at the minor 7th chord from above, it will most likely make you think that dorian would be the best option, as it contains the least amount of avoid notes. But as said, this simply isn't like it all the time.
I have a look at the chord and then compare with the modes that may fit (basically that's just exactly the same what nuffink described). The most common ones are already stored in both my head and fingers.
In addition, I may just experiment with all sorts of stuff.
As an example:
A plain minor7 chord (no further option notes used). What mode to use? There's several. The most "classic" sounding one might be natural minor (aka aeolian). But it's got that b6 in it, which is sometimes (no, even most often) referred to as an "avoid" note. Yet, players such as Miles Davis and George Benson seem to get away with that just fine, mostly by using it as a passing note only, rather than as a target note.
Another idea would be to use dorian. This has no avoid notes per se, but the 6th may occasionally clash with the 7th nonetheless. Plus, it sounds less "functional" but more "open" (in lack of better words).
Then, another idea would be to use phrygian. This is even introducing 2 avoid notes (b6 and b9). Certainly not what you need for "normal" stuff, but one may like the kind of weird character.
Yet another idea would be to use harmonic or melodic minor. Both of them don't even contain all of the basic chord notes anymore, the 7th is now a major 7th. Still, a lot of jazz players are putting melodic minor to good use over a minor 7th chord, probably because of the nice resolution of the maj7th to the root.
Of course, at this point things become unclear, as there's no "rule" such as "use whatever scale that contains all the chord notes" anymore. We're straight in phrasing, outside, chromatic and whatever territory already.
And there's even a whole lot more scales that probably could be used.
The same goes for any chord type.
A favourite one for at least two sort of treatments is the dom7 chord. Classically, one might use mixolydian over it. Sounds the most "inside" solution and it's also closest to blues pentatonic stuff (which can be used as another, non-modal option). But then, the 4th isn't exactly welcome all the time. That's why a lot of players may use mixolydian #11 (a term I prefer over lydian b7 because it still has some connection to the mixolydian/dominant character by the naming).
In the end it might be the best idea to just experiment with all sorts of scales over all sorts of chords, starting with those that have the least "offending" (avoid) notes.
Btw, when it comes to modal scales over whatever chords, things are a bit different than when just exploring scalar chords. When you learn about chord/scale relationships, you will defenitely stumble over the already mentioned "avoid notes". When looking at the minor 7th chord from above, it will most likely make you think that dorian would be the best option, as it contains the least amount of avoid notes. But as said, this simply isn't like it all the time.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRAF
- 1975 posts since 4 Feb, 2005
Not to interject since it's not really my area in the least, but I do notice the Sabatella page, which is under construction, doesn't really explain a whole lot about the scales themselves (if you were wondering what a major bebop scale or altered scale consisted of).
In that case, I recommend this little wiki page that, somehow, eluded my knowledge for a good deal of time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_scales
BTW this is all fantastic stuff.
In that case, I recommend this little wiki page that, somehow, eluded my knowledge for a good deal of time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_scales
BTW this is all fantastic stuff.
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- KVRist
- 441 posts since 30 Apr, 2007
Nuffink, that is a really nice explanation. I think many of us jazzically-challenged get stuck in the I, IV, V trap not because we can't think of any other chords in the world, but because we always hit the wrong melody notes, passing notes, etc. when we try to use them. 
This can help.
This can help.-
bayouhazard@qwest.net bayouhazard@qwest.net https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=33295
- KVRer
- 2 posts since 15 Jul, 2004
All the scale stuff is great to know in the sense that it's being presented here, but my general questions to myself are "where am I going and what flavor do I want to impart?"
Depending on context, I'll use the whole mode/scale relationship stuff to figure out something to play on a set of chords. For example, if I have a typical jam band kind of 2 chord G/F progression, I know I can play G mixolydian/F lydian/C major which is all the same thing because 2 major chords a whole step apart occur on the 4th and 5th degrees of a major scale, in this case F/G.
Does this mean the tune is in C? Yes and no. It would probably be easiest to notate it in C, but I still think of it in G. What flavors I would put on it would depend on context/mood. In determining what scale/mode to use in a lot of the previous cases, where I was going would determine a lot as well as overall context. Typically the V chord is the place where the most tension is placed, so a melodic minor scale a half step above the chord. Ab melodic minor (Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G) has all the tensions, b9, #9,3, #4,#5,b7 against G. That allows for the feeling of resolution to come on whatever resolve follows the V.
Some players transform everything they play other than I (and sometimes even that) into a version of a V chord in which case you can be layering a continuous set of tensions creating the sense of motion and forward leaning so characteristic of good jazz. To create a sense of groundedness, hitting the 3 and/or 7 of wherever you arrive is good, but then following that with some tension, followed by the next 3/7 is a pretty good basic formula for playing something that has a "jazz" sound.
Fun discussion.
Mike
Depending on context, I'll use the whole mode/scale relationship stuff to figure out something to play on a set of chords. For example, if I have a typical jam band kind of 2 chord G/F progression, I know I can play G mixolydian/F lydian/C major which is all the same thing because 2 major chords a whole step apart occur on the 4th and 5th degrees of a major scale, in this case F/G.
Does this mean the tune is in C? Yes and no. It would probably be easiest to notate it in C, but I still think of it in G. What flavors I would put on it would depend on context/mood. In determining what scale/mode to use in a lot of the previous cases, where I was going would determine a lot as well as overall context. Typically the V chord is the place where the most tension is placed, so a melodic minor scale a half step above the chord. Ab melodic minor (Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G) has all the tensions, b9, #9,3, #4,#5,b7 against G. That allows for the feeling of resolution to come on whatever resolve follows the V.
Some players transform everything they play other than I (and sometimes even that) into a version of a V chord in which case you can be layering a continuous set of tensions creating the sense of motion and forward leaning so characteristic of good jazz. To create a sense of groundedness, hitting the 3 and/or 7 of wherever you arrive is good, but then following that with some tension, followed by the next 3/7 is a pretty good basic formula for playing something that has a "jazz" sound.
Fun discussion.
Mike