Just & Equal Temperaments

[Dreamw]

Hmm, ok, I see your point if it takes a while to get used to the new sound. Then some kind of mathematical theory would be a shortcut, since you can't just do a sweep like I said. But then I take it every time you come up with a new theory or scale, you have to torture yourself with it for like a week before you can decide if it would be good or not?

LOL Actually ,perhaps suprisingly, most of it sounds OK so far.
Anyway I think I've been rambling on your thread too long and the real world beckons, but if you ever get into MaxMSP pm me and Ill send you my just intonation patches (they are the traditional just intervals but I could give you some of the others too if you are interested ) . The ratio patches are really simple patches to make so I don't think it would take you long to get your head around them or how to make them yourself.

[vurt]

Those who DO experience sound as color may do so differently, but they are extremely few and far between.

er, you sure about that?

[whyterabbyt]

er, you sure about that?

he's being just as speculative as the origin of base-60 thing. Wikipedia says estimates vary between 1 in 20 and 1 in 20,000. At least one survey makes it 1 in 23.

[Toxikator]

You're absolutely right. I didn't realize it was that many. I had always thought it was a rare condition (though TBH I'd call 1 in 20,000 extremely rare, so I guess it just depends on which of those estimates is accurate).



EDIT: Though also that 1 in 23 counts ALL forms of synesthesia, including it's most common variety which is letter-color. Still far more than I'd originally thought, but it means that it's fewer than 1 in 23 who identifies pitches as colors (FWIW).

FTR I do know that in the realm of music, there are MANY important synesthetes including Eddie Van Halen, John Mayer, Stevie Wonder, Franz Liszt, Rimsky-Korsakov, etc.

[Meffy]

[pedantic excuse='none'] "Synaesthetes." [/pedantic]

P.S.: I have a limited form of synaesthesia. I think that some music stinks.

[Dreamw]

The thing is theres lots of different types of Synesthesia. Many synesthetes do not see sounds for example , many of them associate colours with numbers etc. Synesthetes who actually see sounds clearly are quite rare, though we possibly all do to some extent. In fact research has shown that we may all be synesthesic at an early age but lose the ability as we grow (neonatal synesthesia) :

http://psyche.cs.monash.edu.au/v2/psych ... cohen.html

[vurt]

Synesthetes who actually see sounds clearly are quite rare, though we possibly all do to some extent.

so not rare at all then?

its more likely to me that everyone has it, perhaps that as its one of those things that just occurs we dont notice it until someone brings it up and explains it.
its maybe connected in some way to mood, certain sounds make us react differently, this in turn happens when we see colours for instance, it brings about a change however minor in our mood. oerhaos the two are somehow linked more with a memory than an actual visual experience.
altho then perhaps more people would get images rather than just colour washes?

to be completely honest, its notreally something i worry about, it only effects me when i cose my eyes orif i vacantly stare at something when listening actively to music. its not like i walk down teh street and everyime i hear a radio pass im bombarded with colour, that would be freaky.
so i guess its my own private lightshow

[herodotus]

OK, just for shits and giggles, a bit of pedantry that is actually sort of on topic:

In the first place, Just intonantion isn't a temperament. It is the standard from which temperaments are calculated. It is a tuning system based on a series of superparticular ratios (1:2, 2:3, 3:4, and, problematically, 4:5).

The relationship between consonance and these ratios is what Pythagoras is credited with discovering. But even that is less than solid, as Pythagoras is a poorly documented fellow in spite of being so famous.

Just intonation is the proper name of the tuning system based on this pythagorean insight. If you want to immerse yourself in it here is a good place to start.

The reason that this tuning system isn't more widespread is the dreaded pythagorean comma. The problem is that if you start at, say C-1 and ascend by pure pythagorean fifths, the C you reach is slightly different than the C you reach if you ascend by octaves. This little flaw in the natural order is what has given rise to all of the tempered tuning sytems: Meantone, Well-tempered, Kirnbergers temperaments, and of course, Equal temperament.

I have to go for now, but I should note that wikipedia is not the best guide on these matters. the best place to go is still your local library. and the best book to start with is probably this one.

Have fun.

[whyterabbyt]

Synesthetes who actually see sounds clearly are quite rare, though we possibly all do to some extent.

so not rare at all then?

Nope. In fact synaesthesia seems very 'in' this year. Just about everywhere Ive been doing any research related to my notation project has had it as a buzzword somewhere. Or at least anywhere there's audio/visual/interactive art stuff.
Its this year's aspbergers, I think.

[vurt]

Its this year's aspbergers, I think.

ooh, wonder if theres a support group

"my names steve and i see blue everytime i hear Dm on a cello "

[herodotus]

Synesthetes who actually see sounds clearly are quite rare, though we possibly all do to some extent.

so not rare at all then?

Nope. In fact synaesthesia seems very 'in' this year. Just about everywhere Ive been doing any research related to my notation project has had it as a buzzword somewhere. Or at least anywhere there's audio/visual/interactive art stuff.
Its this year's aspbergers, I think.

'Synaesthesia' has always been a Timothy Leary word to me.

[Dreamw]

Synesthetes who actually see sounds clearly are quite rare, though we possibly all do to some extent.

so not rare at all then?

its more likely to me that everyone has it, perhaps that as its one of those things that just occurs we dont notice it until someone brings it up and explains it.
its maybe connected in some way to mood, certain sounds make us react differently, this in turn happens when we see colours for instance, it brings about a change however minor in our mood. oerhaos the two are somehow linked more with a memory than an actual visual experience.
altho then perhaps more people would get images rather than just colour washes?

to be completely honest, its notreally something i worry about, it only effects me when i cose my eyes orif i vacantly stare at something when listening actively to music. its not like i walk down teh street and everyime i hear a radio pass im bombarded with colour, that would be freaky.
so i guess its my own private lightshow

If I close my eyes I can see various shapes and patterns sometimes with the music. Its quite faint though sometimes is stronger. This is probably quite common. However there have been a few very rare individuals that actually see sounds clearly and vividly (perhaps with their eyes open ?) and what they see with their eyes closed is extremely well defined strong. To actually see swirling forms and geometric patterns hovering in the air when you hear a sound would be rare unless you are under the influence of a hullucinogenic drug of course....

[Dreamw]

OK, just for shits and giggles, a bit of pedantry that is actually sort of on topic:

In the first place, Just intonantion isn't a temperament. It is the standard from which temperaments are calculated. It is a tuning system based on a series of superparticular ratios (1:2, 2:3, 3:4, and, problematically, 4:5).

The relationship between consonance and these ratios is what Pythagoras is credited with discovering. But even that is less than solid, as Pythagoras is a poorly documented fellow in spite of being so famous.

Just intonation is the proper name of the tuning system based on this pythagorean insight. If you want to immerse yourself in it here is a good place to start.

The reason that this tuning system isn't more widespread is the dreaded pythagorean comma. The problem is that if you start at, say C-1 and ascend by pure pythagorean fifths, the C you reach is slightly different than the C you reach if you ascend by octaves. This little flaw in the natural order is what has given rise to all of the tempered tuning sytems: Meantone, Well-tempered, Kirnbergers temperaments, and of course, Equal temperament.

I have to go for now, but I should note that wikipedia is not the best guide on these matters. the best place to go is still your local library. and the best book to start with is probably this one.

Have fun.

Good post. Thats the good thing about software like MSP you can get around the comma. its true what you say about Pythagorus, and more and more research is showing much of the Ancient Greeks knowledge was derived from Ancient Egypt so.....

[vurt]

so now youre prsuming to tell me about my own experiences?

ITS NOT RARE!!!

[Dreamw]

so now youre prsuming to tell me about my own experiences?

ITS NOT RARE!!!

If you see well defined colours and shapes clearly with your eyes open when you hear sounds it is extremely rare.