Just & Equal Temperaments

[Kingston]

there's a fancy word for languages with multiple tonal states so excuse me for forgetting it, some of them having up to 4 states. you can google this, but a recent study showed something like one in four or half of the more advanced native multi tonal language speakers had perfect pitch (somewhere in deep tribal africa etc equally exotic places). this would indicate the skill is related to learning to speak, and it's obviously enhanced greatly during the first 4 years of life. non relative pitch becomes part of the regular vocabulary.

none of the western languages have multiple tonal states so the skill is rare around here. it's likely it needs no special genetic disposition any more than the ability to speak does, so if I ever have kids they'll be subjected to extensive musical stimulation just to see how it goes.



of synasthesia I've absolutely no clue, but it sounds more like a genetic brain "malfunction" or some more exotic junction of brain functionality to me. probably can't be taught or learned.

[gsoto]

Interesting experiment: Play some major triads using sine waves tuned in the mathematically perfect Pythagorean scale. Play the same chords in TET. Which chords sound engaging, musically lively? Which sound flat and uninteresting? I did this using an ancient version of csound but any synth that can generate clean sine waves in arbitrary tunings will do.

I'd like to do this kind of experiments, play with different tunning systems, etc. but I don't seem to find any free synth or tool that allows me that. Any suggestions? I might get into CSound but I'd prefer something more... quick?

By the way, I went to Wikipedia to find what was this all about, and apparently I might have some forms of synesthesia. WTF, I thought that everybody had this associations of colors/personalities with numbers/letters/notes/chords; now I'm a weirdo . I think I even have that "number form" thing, I could never imagine there would be a name for that!
I guess I'm "cool"...

(...) but it sounds more like a genetic brain "malfunction" (...)

[Sascha Franck]

What a highly interesting thread! Keep them things coming! I need to reread the entire thing tomorrow, with a clear mindstate.
Thanks for all those links and explanations, really!

[vurt]

By the way, I went to Wikipedia to find what was this all about, and apparently I might have some forms of synesthesia. WTF, I thought that everybody had this associations of colors/personalities with numbers/letters/notes/chords; now I'm a weirdo . I think I even have that "number form" thing, I could never imagine there would be a name for that!

i rest my case m'lud.

its more likely to me that everyone has it, perhaps that as its one of those things that just occurs we dont notice it until someone brings it up and explains it.

[gsoto]

"i rest my case m'lud."
I'm afraid I don't quite get the meaning of that sentence , but I totally agree with the quote.

[herodotus]

but like I said before, your ear is the only measure of how well something sounds, so unfortunately math is most likely useless.

I wish someone had said this to Schöenberg (et al.) before he started out

Stop rippin' on my man Arnold!

I happen to really love a number of his works: his opus 24, Moses and Aaron, Pierrot Lunaire, A Survivor from Warsaw.... I just like how they sound. I haven't analyzed a single one of them. (well the opus 24 a bit, but just casually.)

And he wasn't a mathematical fellow at all. He was an expressive man who couldn't fit his thoughts and feelings into the Brahmsian/Wagnerian harmonic tradition. His whole idea with what he called 'composition with twelve tones' was to find a way to compose that filled his expressive needs, yet still had some continuity with the Austro-Germanic musical tradition that he knew and loved.

[Peel]

I have heard that the blues scale follows some sort of natural physical phenomenon based on the overtone harmonic series.
Is there some sort of confirmation on this?

Well, there's no definite answer to this, because it's under constant study and there's no single "blues scale" exactly (unless you mean that minor pentatonic with the added b5, but AFAIK that was developed on tempered instruments in reaction to traditional blues). In actual traditional blues music(s), the system behind the notes seems to be pretty hard to pin down.
But a theory I've often heard is that it's based on an attempt to harmonize a traditional African natural pentatonic scale (based on the harmonic series), with the simple 12-tet guitar chords of American folk music of the time. Gerhard Kubik, "Africa and the Blues," talks a bit about this.

[Toxikator]

By the way, I went to Wikipedia to find what was this all about, and apparently I might have some forms of synesthesia. WTF, I thought that everybody had this associations of colors/personalities with numbers/letters/notes/chords; now I'm a weirdo . I think I even have that "number form" thing, I could never imagine there would be a name for that!

i rest my case m'lud.

its more likely to me that everyone has it, perhaps that as its one of those things that just occurs we dont notice it until someone brings it up and explains it.

But is it REAL synesthesia or pseudosynesthesia?

I mean, we all make mental connections between our senses; it's the reason we're able to describe a bass sound as "warm", a cheddar cheese as "sharp", the color blue as "cool", certain smells as "sour", certain sounds as "bright", certain colors as "loud", etc.

Making an abstract connection between these things is not the same as experiencing sensory stimuli simultaneously.

A minor chord seems sad and dejected to me, but that does not mean I have some sort of sound-personification synesthesia (if there were such a thing, since the documented personification one is associated with the orderings of letters and numbers).

Interestingly enough, I do what I feel almost everyone does at one point or another, and imagines scenarios with the music they listen to; I get colors, perspectives, and all manner of intricacy just from listening to music. The song M1 A1 by the Gorillaz (to me) sounds like a dark green hallway with a man with a flashlight at the end, water running down the walls from leaking, exposed pipes, and nothing but burnt out lightbulbs for the first couple of minutes (when it plays the spooky introduction bit). The main verse/chorus sounds like a body summoned from a pool of blood with hollow eyes holding a microphone.

It's the reason I hate music videos; they ruin that experience in some ways.

But that doesn't mean that when you play "A", I get a pink-colored sensation (or whatever). Synesthetes see things differently; they can pick out certain letters from lineups by scanning and looking for the color that doesn't fit. In fact, in wikipedia there was a person discussing how he used to spell using his grapheme-color synesthesia because certain hard words were made of very dark letters and bright letters didn't fit, so he knew not to use them.

That's a level of sensory perception that is nowhere NEAR the same as being able to imaginatively connect one set of sensory adjectives to another.

[JumpingJackFlash]

but like I said before, your ear is the only measure of how well something sounds, so unfortunately math is most likely useless.

I wish someone had said this to Schöenberg (et al.) before he started out

Stop rippin' on my man Arnold!

Whatever floats your boat I guess. I was perhaps a little unfair; some of his stuff isn't too bad, but I would never choose to listen to it out of pleasure. It's very clever, covers new ground, inspired others, blah blah blah, but on a purely aesthetic level, I'm not keen on how it sounds.

I have had to analyse some of his works (much of Pierrot Lunaire especially). Maybe that's a reason, kind of like when you study a book in school and never like it later in life, even if it's good.

Sorry, this is a bit off-topic.

[Toxikator]

I disagree. I use 12-tone serial things all the time, it works in contexts. Get a bunch of violins doing pizzicato runs of a tone-row, and mix it up so that every one is doing a different set, and you get that brilliant horror-film "insect" thing going on.

It has its functions.

[Meffy]

"i rest my case m'lud."
I'm afraid I don't quite get the meaning of that sentence :oops:, but I totally agree with the quote.

It's what a lawyer (barrister? solicitor? I don't know the fine points of the English legal system) says in court when he's given his best evidence and his best arguments and has nothing more to say. The implication is that he figures he's proven his case. "M'lud" is short for "my Lord," meaning the judge.

I ought to know those English court terms better from watching "Rumpole of the Bailey" on television and reading the books... what a poor memory I have.

[edit] P.S.: Some of the judges and lawyers in "Rumpole" have very unjust temperaments indeed.

[nuffink]

The british judiciary doing what it does best... Judge: What is a website?

[gsoto]

Meffy, thanks for the broad explanation.

nuffink, lol.

But is it REAL synesthesia or pseudosynesthesia?

I don't know.
Apparently it can show at different levels. For me it's not like I "see" the color with my eyes (I could not pass the "pop up test"), more like visualizing it in my mind. But it's something completely unconscious, I have to think of it to realize that it's happening. And the trigger is not actually seeing the letter/number/whatever but thinking of it. It seems more tied to processing and storing than early stages of perception. It's like an automatic coding thing.
The "coloring" happens with many things: letters, numbers, days of the week, months, ...
For example, with notes and chords sometimes the colors are connected to notes and the chords that have that root note, sometimes specific chords, sometimes it seems to depend on the scale I'm thinking:
D, Dmaj -> orange
Dmin -> dark beige
F, Fmaj, Fmin -> green
G, Gmaj, Gmin -> this color between pure blue and sky blue
Amin -> white
Amaj, when playing in A major scale -> yellow
B, Bmaj, Bmin -> red
A#maj -> orange
...

[JumpingJackFlash]

But is it REAL synesthesia or pseudosynesthesia?

I don't know.
Apparently it can show at different levels. For me it's not like I "see" the color with my eyes (I could not pass the "pop up test"), more like visualizing it in my mind. But it's something completely unconscious, I have to think of it to realize that it's happening. And the trigger is not actually seeing the letter/number/whatever but thinking of it. It seems more tied to processing and storing than early stages of perception. It's like an automatic coding thing.
The "coloring" happens with many things: letters, numbers, days of the week, months, ...
For example, with notes and chords sometimes the colors are connected to notes and the chords that have that root note, sometimes specific chords, sometimes it seems to depend on the scale I'm thinking:
D, Dmaj -> orange
Dmin -> dark beige
F, Fmaj, Fmin -> green
G, Gmaj, Gmin -> this color between pure blue and sky blue
Amin -> white
Amaj, when playing in A major scale -> yellow
B, Bmaj, Bmin -> red
A#maj -> orange

This is interesting, especially at the end there, seeing as you can't really have the key of A# major. I don't know whether that was deliberate or not. (In theory, it would have to be notated as Bb major). I have absolutely no synesthesic powers (?) at all, so it is difficult for me to understand. Do synesthetes (?) see the same colour for notes enharmonically equivalent?

This question also has the advantage of getting back on topic seeing as notes can only be truly enharmonically equivalent in Equal Temperament. - So, assuming you are in equal temperament, do you see A# and Bb the same? - What about if you're not in equal temperament? - How much of a difference in tuning does there have to be before you notice a colour change? - Is it a gradual thing, or a sudden change? Is there any logic to it, for example, are sharp keys 'warm' colours and flat keys 'cooler' colours? Why do you see different colours for A major and A minor, but not for F major and F minor? If I glissandoed quickly through the chromatic scale, would you see a nice pretty rainbow?

[Toxikator]

They do, JJF... The reason being that their brain attaches colors to the frequencies.

Gsoto, it sounds like you have synesthesia. It's possible that it's imagination, though; the real test would be to have someone play chords or notes for you without telling you what they ARE; that would be the simplest way to determine whether your color association is grounded in your cognitive process, rather than your sensory perception.