II relative of secondary dominants on minor scales

[eddu]

Hi,

I know the major scales form this chords_

IIm7 - V7 - Imaj7

So i know (correct me if i am wrong, please) i can use this to go to every one of the chords of this scales (using the IIm7 to go to the respectives dominants). Fine.

So now i am trying to master the harmonic minor scale and the chords derived from it are:

IIØhalf dim - V7 - Imin7

The II chord (second degree?) is different than the II form the major scale. Am i right if i say i have to use this IIhalf dim before any secondary dominant?

I suppose the question is extensive to any other scale, as every one of them should give different constructions for the II and V chords.

Sorry if its a stupid question, just trying to put things in place.

Thanks

[JumpingJackFlash]

Hi,

I know the major scales form this chords_

IIm7 - V7 - Imaj7

So i know (correct me if i am wrong, please) i can use this to go to every one of the chords of this scales (using the IIm7 to go to the respectives dominants). Fine.

So now i am trying to master the harmonic minor scale and the chords derived from it are:

IIØhalf dim - V7 - Imin7

The II chord (second degree?) is different than the II form the major scale. Am i right if i say i have to use this IIhalf dim before any secondary dominant?

I suppose the question is extensive to any other scale, as every one of them should give different constructions for the II and V chords.

Sorry if its a stupid question, just trying to put things in place.

Thanks

I'm not sure I've understood all your post correctly, but firstly, you're correct in the chords for the major and harmonic minor. It's a very common progression, but you do not have to use it. (You can have a different chord before V; IV, vi or Ic can all work).

Also; you seem a bit confused with 'secondary dominants'. - These are the dominant chord of a key other than the tonic, the most common being V of V. This is effectively the same as the major chord built on II. So, adding a diatonic seventh would then produce II7, and not iim7 or iiØ. This is usually followed by the dominant chord V, as you have done. (But again, the V does not have to be preceded by this chord).

Are you trying to modulate or not? - In other words, are you changing key? - Perhaps using the cycle of fifths, to produce the same chord progression in several consecutive keys? The secondary dominant is often used when modulating, but it can also be used purely to decorate a cadence and remain in the tonic key.

If you are modulating, V7 in one key can become II7 in another. (The I in the first key then becomes V in the next).

[eddu]

I'm not sure I've understood all your post correctly, but firstly, you're correct in the chords for the major and harmonic minor. It's a very common progression, but you do not have to use it. (You can have a different chord before V; IV, vi or Ic can all work).

I know i can do more things but now i want to focus on the II-V relationship.

Also; you seem a bit confused with 'secondary dominants'. - These are the dominant chord of a key other than the tonic, the most common being V of V. This is effectively the same as the major chord built on II. So, adding a diatonic seventh would then produce II7, and not iim7 or iiØ. This is usually followed by the dominant chord V, as you have done. (But again, the V does not have to be preceded by this chord).

Ok, i insist on the II-7 - V7 because thats what i learned in a book about modern harmony i bought some years ago. The author calls this a "II-7 relative" and its definition is: "any secondary dominant can be inmediately preceded by its II-7 relative, the latter staying in a stronger part or bar than the secondary dominant". Is this something strange or not trustworthy?

Are you trying to modulate or not? - In other words, are you changing key? - Perhaps using the cycle of fifths, to produce the same chord progression in several consecutive keys? The secondary dominant is often used when modulating, but it can also be used purely to decorate a cadence and remain in the tonic key.

No, i'm just trying to use it as a decorating element. My question is if the structure of these II relative and V secondary dominantvary when we are using a scale other than the major.

If you are modulating, V7 in one key can become II7 in another. (The I in the first key then becomes V in the next).

This is question is apart but...in this case i shouldnt use a major key (the new one, while modulating), cause the V7 has a major third, and the II of the major scale has a minor third, should i?

[JumpingJackFlash]

Ok, I think your confusion arises over what a 'secondary dominant is'

In II-V-I (whatever sevenths you add), the V is NOT a secondary dominant. It is the normal dominant; the dominant in the tonic key.

A secondary dominant can result if you make the II chord major, not minor. The secondary dominant is V of V, the dominant chord of the dominant key.

So, II7-V7-I can also be written V7ofV - V7 - I. It is the first chord, II7 or V7ofV, that is the secondary dominant.

Let's take an example:

In C major, a normal ii-V-I would be D minor, G major, C major.
If you add diatonic sevenths, this would produce: D minor seventh, G dominant seventh, C major seventh.

The dominant key of C major is G major. The dominant chord in G major is D major. Thus, in C major, we can say V of V is D major. - Notice this is the same as II in C major, only with a major third instead of a minor third. If you add a diatonic seventh to D major, you get D dominant seventh.

So, using a dominant seventh produces: D dominant seventh, G dominant seventh, C major seventh.

[eddu]

Well, forget about the secondary dominant please. I think i got it from the very beginning. The question is about the II relative. I'll try to make another one:

II-7 relative: "any secondary dominant can be inmediately preceded by its II-7 relative, the latter staying in a stronger part or bar than the secondary dominant".

Is this a common pratice in modern harmony?

Is this what we are talking about when somebody says "typical jazz II-V"?

Thanks!

[nuffink]

Well, forget about the secondary dominant please. I think i got it from the very beginning. The question is about the II relative. I'll try to make another one:

II-7 relative: "any secondary dominant can be inmediately preceded by its II-7 relative, the latter staying in a stronger part or bar than the secondary dominant".

Is this a common pratice in modern harmony?

Is this what we are talking about when somebody says "typical jazz II-V"?

Thanks!

A typical jazz II-V is the the chord built on the second degree of the scale progressing to to the chord built on the fifth degree. In a major context this would be iimin7 - V7. In a minor context it would usually be iimin7 - V7(alt). In both cases the V7 is the primary domininant.

Secondary dominants are something else. A secondary dominant is defined as "a dominant chord whose root and implied target (a fifth down) are both diatonic". There are 5 secondary dominants in the major scale, they are...

I7, II7, III7, VI7, VII7
which function as V7/IV, V7/V, V7/vi, V7/ii, V7/iii

In C major this equates to...
C7, D7, E7, A7, B7

There's no secondary V7/I because V7/I is the primary dominant and there's no V7/vii because the root a fifth above vii is bV which isn't diatonic.

Any secondary dominant (as you said) can be preceded by its relative iimin7. Any iimin7 can be preceded by it's relative vimin7 and so on. This is called "back cycling"

[eddu]

Well, forget about the secondary dominant please. I think i got it from the very beginning. The question is about the II relative. I'll try to make another one:

II-7 relative: "any secondary dominant can be inmediately preceded by its II-7 relative, the latter staying in a stronger part or bar than the secondary dominant".

Is this a common pratice in modern harmony?

Is this what we are talking about when somebody says "typical jazz II-V"?

Thanks!

A typical jazz II-V is the the chord built on the second degree of the scale progressing to to the chord built on the fifth degree. In a major context this would be iimin7 - V7. In a minor context it would usually be iimin7 - V7(alt). In both cases the V7 is the primary domininant.

Secondary dominants are something else. A secondary dominant is defined as "a dominant chord whose root and implied target (a fifth down) are both diatonic". There are 5 secondary dominants in the major scale, they are...

I7, II7, III7, VI7, VII7
which function as V7/IV, V7/V, V7/vi, V7/ii, V7/iii

In C major this equates to...
C7, D7, E7, A7, B7

There's no secondary V7/I because V7/I is the primary dominant and there's no V7/vii because the root a fifth above vii is bV which isn't diatonic.

Any secondary dominant (as you said) can be preceded by its relative iimin7. Any iimin7 can be preceded by it's relative vimin7 and so on. This is called "back cycling"

"and so on.." what do you mean? so its: V7 secondary after IImin7 after VImin7 and then what?

How does the back cycling continue?

[nuffink]

Well, forget about the secondary dominant please. I think i got it from the very beginning. The question is about the II relative. I'll try to make another one:

II-7 relative: "any secondary dominant can be inmediately preceded by its II-7 relative, the latter staying in a stronger part or bar than the secondary dominant".

Is this a common pratice in modern harmony?

Is this what we are talking about when somebody says "typical jazz II-V"?

Thanks!

A typical jazz II-V is the the chord built on the second degree of the scale progressing to to the chord built on the fifth degree. In a major context this would be iimin7 - V7. In a minor context it would usually be iimin7 - V7(alt). In both cases the V7 is the primary domininant.

Secondary dominants are something else. A secondary dominant is defined as "a dominant chord whose root and implied target (a fifth down) are both diatonic". There are 5 secondary dominants in the major scale, they are...

I7, II7, III7, VI7, VII7
which function as V7/IV, V7/V, V7/vi, V7/ii, V7/iii

In C major this equates to...
C7, D7, E7, A7, B7

There's no secondary V7/I because V7/I is the primary dominant and there's no V7/vii because the root a fifth above vii is bV which isn't diatonic.

Any secondary dominant (as you said) can be preceded by its relative iimin7. Any iimin7 can be preceded by it's relative vimin7 and so on. This is called "back cycling"

"and so on.." what do you mean? so its: V7 secondary after IImin7 after VImin7 and then what?

How does the back cycling continue?

You can cycle round the the circle of fifths IV - vii - iii - vi - ii - V - I

[eddu]

Ah we are moving backwards in the circle of fifths, ...but are not all the chords in nthe circle major? like F7 - B7 - E7 - A7 - D7 - G7 - C? Do they respect the triads from the major scale harmonization then?

[JumpingJackFlash]

Ah we are moving backwards in the circle of fifths, ...but are not all the chords in nthe circle major? like F7 - B7 - E7 - A7 - D7 - G7 - C? Do they respect the triads from the major scale harmonization then?

Fifths in terms of root note only. (So, no modulation).

Your book said "any secondary dominant can be immediately preceded by its II-7 relative, the latter staying in a stronger part or bar than the secondary dominant".

I would imagine (although it's not perfectly clear out of context), that the word 'relative' here means in relation to the 'borrowed' key (for lack of a better term). So, if you are dealing with V of V, the dominant of the dominant key, the II refers to the second chord in the dominant key. Similarly, if for some reason you had V of IV, the II would be the second chord in the subdominant key. etc.

In other words, ii of V moving to V of V.

ii of V is vi in the original key, so the progression is: vi-V/V-V-I.
This is a fairly common progression. You can add diatonic sevenths above any or all of those if you like producing vim7-V7/V-V7-I.
Look at the chords, they are all a fifth apart from each other.
In C major for example, vi is A, V of V is D, V is G, and I is C. A-D-G-C, all moving down in fifths. (This creates a good effect).

However, you don't have to precede a secondary dominant like this. Having I, vi or Vb (in the tonic key) before it would also work if your intent is purely to decorate a cadence, although if you wish to make a harmonic sequence (like the cycle of fifths for example), these would possibly be less effective.

[nuffink]

When you back cycle you're tonicizing (temporarily modulating to) the implied target.

I'll explain it in C major.

The diatonic chords are (as usual) Cmaj7 - Dmin7 - Emin7 - Fmaj7 - G7 - Amin7 - Bmin7b5. Lets use the secondary dominant V7/V. In C this is D7* and it's implied target is G7. You treat the G7 as a major tonic (this is why it's called tonicization) and cycle back through G major. So the complete back cycle would be Cmaj7 - F#min7b5 - Bmin7 - Emin7 - Amin7 - D7 - G7

*edit: sorry, this was wrong (it said E7)

[nuffink]

eddu. That last post had a howler in it. I'm bumping this in case I confused you.

[eddu]

So the complete back cycle would be Cmaj7 - F#min7b5 - Bmin7 - Emin7 - Amin7 - D7 - G7

mmm...so thats using the circle of fifths to end up in a secondary dominant right? Then i see the chords formed on each of this notes (F# - B - E - A...) correspond to the major key harmonization of the secondary dominant (chords derived from the G major scale). Sorry i know it can be expressed better, i just dont know how, i still mix concepts

Then when using the circle of fifths not in a modulation or secondary dominant, just using it while i am at CMaj...what chord is played on F#? Because in the C major scale there's no F#...

Does this question have sense?


Also why did you say the complete cycle backwards? you started at F#..why? why not beginning at F? If i look at the drawing of the circle i see the whole cycle backwards should start at F (note before C on the circle -at the left i mean).

[exmachinamusic]

Hi,

I know the major scales form this chords_

IIm7 - V7 - Imaj7

So i know (correct me if i am wrong, please) i can use this to go to every one of the chords of this scales (using the IIm7 to go to the respectives dominants). Fine.

So now i am trying to master the harmonic minor scale and the chords derived from it are:

IIØhalf dim - V7 - Imin7

The II chord (second degree?) is different than the II form the major scale. Am i right if i say i have to use this IIhalf dim before any secondary dominant?

I suppose the question is extensive to any other scale, as every one of them should give different constructions for the II and V chords.

Sorry if its a stupid question, just trying to put things in place.

Thanks

You're pretty confused about your terms here, but if you are saying what I think you are saying, no, there is nothing locking you into using the IIhalf-dim before the V7. Using whatever II chord is appropriate for the scale you are using will almost always work and sound "tonal," but there is no real requirement for that even if you are adhering to strict classical harmony.

Reread the section in your book about Secondary dominants, the term means something other than you think it means.

[eddu]

Hey, thanks...i almost didnt remember about my first question in the topic.

However i do have the feeling that i got the secondary dominant concept. I should have named this topic something about the II relative rather than the secondary dominant. In fact i am going to change the name right now!