May be it's confusing as I am still confused with theory,
but I will appreciated some example: if and when it is possible,
I mean at the same time,in the same song.
As I continue reading the blues scale for the bass.
So the question is can I have different scales going on at the same time in the same key,
melody doing harmonic minor and the bass doing blues scale?
Please anyone could clear it out?
thanks,marco.
Different scales same key?
-
- KVRist
- 172 posts since 6 Jul, 2005 from Roma (Italy)
-
- KVRist
- 96 posts since 15 Jun, 2007 from wisconsin
Probably not, unless you hit the right notes at the same time and produce a dissonant sound but, to do that in the first place, the scales would have to be almost identical. I highly recommend mastering the rules of music theory before you try to break them. You can certainly embelish notes to give a harmonic minor a more blues feel to it but, playing different scales together will almost never resonate properly. There may be some exceptions though, im no expert.
-
- KVRist
- 227 posts since 10 Aug, 2006 from europe
-
- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
Yes you can have different scales in the same key.
The key defines the chords. There are usually a number of different "chord scales" which can be played over each chord type.
This though is a long way from melody doing harmonic minor and the bass doing blues scale.
The key defines the chords. There are usually a number of different "chord scales" which can be played over each chord type.
This though is a long way from melody doing harmonic minor and the bass doing blues scale.
Now with improved MIDI jitter!
-
- KVRist
- 179 posts since 1 May, 2007 from Apartment Zero
that's an interesting question. "Key" is actually kind of a nebulous concept, maybe the defining parameters are the overall tonic of the piece (which gives the letter name of the key) and the overall third (which gives you major or minor). Even folk tunes (say, Red Haired Boy) will shift scales (like a lot of Irish tunes, the seventh shifts from major to minor).
Or a standard pop/jazz tune like Stella By Starlight, the first note of the melody is the same letter name as the tonic (say you're playing Stella in Bb, the first note of the melody will be Bb) but at that point, it's not actually functioning as the tonic, it's a flat nine on a dominant leading to Dm, and then that's followed by a bunch of temporary shifts to other keys and scales. You'd still say "let's play Stella in Bb".
So yeah, different scales get used within a tune, without changing the overall key of the tune. If you have a piece where you're looking at the bass line as derived from a blues scale, and the melody as derived from harmonic minor, what you've got is really just a minor key tune (say the tonic is A, then the key is A minor).
Or a standard pop/jazz tune like Stella By Starlight, the first note of the melody is the same letter name as the tonic (say you're playing Stella in Bb, the first note of the melody will be Bb) but at that point, it's not actually functioning as the tonic, it's a flat nine on a dominant leading to Dm, and then that's followed by a bunch of temporary shifts to other keys and scales. You'd still say "let's play Stella in Bb".
So yeah, different scales get used within a tune, without changing the overall key of the tune. If you have a piece where you're looking at the bass line as derived from a blues scale, and the melody as derived from harmonic minor, what you've got is really just a minor key tune (say the tonic is A, then the key is A minor).
-
JumpingJackFlash JumpingJackFlash https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=44005
- KVRian
- 1227 posts since 10 Oct, 2004
There's some very mixed-up advice here.
nuffink's answer is closest to the intent of the OP I believe, which is nothing to do with relative minors or polytonality.
The short answer to the original question is essentially 'yes', but it's not quite as simple as that.
The key of the piece is like general framework, it defines the basic playing space so to speak. You do not (and most music doesn't) stick rigidly to the confines of the key. On many occasions you will find notes which do not belong to the key; 'chromatic notes'. The presence of these does not necessarily mean that the key has changed, it is just extending that general framework; making tiny alterations. The basic playing space remains the same.
There are various ways, and various degrees that a piece can deviate from the key. Using the blues scale is one example (as people have mentioned).
Also, the first note of a piece is NOT necessarily the tonic. It often is, but it doesn't have to be. The tonic is the first note of the overall key; the general framework.
What is more important than these theoretical concepts is the basic Tonal Relationships. - Consonance and Dissonance. This is obviously related to key, but the key is not the be-all and end-all, particularly in modern music.
nuffink's answer is closest to the intent of the OP I believe, which is nothing to do with relative minors or polytonality.
The short answer to the original question is essentially 'yes', but it's not quite as simple as that.
The key of the piece is like general framework, it defines the basic playing space so to speak. You do not (and most music doesn't) stick rigidly to the confines of the key. On many occasions you will find notes which do not belong to the key; 'chromatic notes'. The presence of these does not necessarily mean that the key has changed, it is just extending that general framework; making tiny alterations. The basic playing space remains the same.
There are various ways, and various degrees that a piece can deviate from the key. Using the blues scale is one example (as people have mentioned).
Also, the first note of a piece is NOT necessarily the tonic. It often is, but it doesn't have to be. The tonic is the first note of the overall key; the general framework.
What is more important than these theoretical concepts is the basic Tonal Relationships. - Consonance and Dissonance. This is obviously related to key, but the key is not the be-all and end-all, particularly in modern music.
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
-
- KVRist
- 179 posts since 1 May, 2007 from Apartment Zero
hunh. JJF, is my post mixed-up? 
I didn't say the first note of a piece was the tonic. I'd say more often than not, it isn't -- even for nursery rhyme tunes, Mary Had A Little Lamb, The Farmer In The Dell, etc ad infinitum.
More frequently the last note is the tonic, but in the example I used, Stella, that doesn't hold either. The point I was making is that there is not a one-to-one correspodence between the pitch set within a tune, or even the function of a particular pitch at a particular moment within a tune, to the overall key of the piece and the diatonic scale associated with that key.
As you say it's not simple. I can imagine a piece though where the bass could be seen as derived from an A blues scale, with a tonic of A, and the melody contained the pitch set of A harmonic minor. The key of that piece would be A minor.
but yeah, the original poster didn't actually ask about "key", so maybe that's a roundabout way of getting to the point. He asked whether he could have a blues scale in the bass and harmonic minor in the melody (or pitch sets that could be interpreted that way). The answer to that question is unequivocally yes.
no quibble with anyone's post, just wondering if maybe mine was misread
I didn't say the first note of a piece was the tonic. I'd say more often than not, it isn't -- even for nursery rhyme tunes, Mary Had A Little Lamb, The Farmer In The Dell, etc ad infinitum.More frequently the last note is the tonic, but in the example I used, Stella, that doesn't hold either. The point I was making is that there is not a one-to-one correspodence between the pitch set within a tune, or even the function of a particular pitch at a particular moment within a tune, to the overall key of the piece and the diatonic scale associated with that key.
As you say it's not simple. I can imagine a piece though where the bass could be seen as derived from an A blues scale, with a tonic of A, and the melody contained the pitch set of A harmonic minor. The key of that piece would be A minor.
but yeah, the original poster didn't actually ask about "key", so maybe that's a roundabout way of getting to the point. He asked whether he could have a blues scale in the bass and harmonic minor in the melody (or pitch sets that could be interpreted that way). The answer to that question is unequivocally yes.
no quibble with anyone's post, just wondering if maybe mine was misread
-
JumpingJackFlash JumpingJackFlash https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=44005
- KVRian
- 1227 posts since 10 Oct, 2004
Sorry if I misread anything, I just took:beboop wrote:hunh. JJF, is my post mixed-up?
More frequently the last note is the tonic, but in the example I used, Stella, that doesn't hold either. The point I was making is that there is not a one-to-one correspodence between the pitch set within a tune, or even the function of a particular pitch at a particular moment within a tune, to the overall key of the piece and the diatonic scale associated with that key.
As you say it's not simple. I can imagine a piece though where the bass could be seen as derived from an A blues scale, with a tonic of A, and the melody contained the pitch set of A harmonic minor. The key of that piece would be A minor.
but yeah, the original poster didn't actually ask about "key", so maybe that's a roundabout way of getting to the point. He asked whether he could have a blues scale in the bass and harmonic minor in the melody (or pitch sets that could be interpreted that way). The answer to that question is unequivocally yes.
no quibble with anyone's post, just wondering if maybe mine was misread
to mean you were saying that the tonic is given by the first note (which as you said, isn't always true). I agree with the rest of your post, - I think I agree with the second paragraph anyway, but it's a bit painful on the brain to readbeboop wrote:Or a standard pop/jazz tune like Stella By Starlight, the first note of the melody is the same letter name as the tonic (say you're playing Stella in Bb, the first note of the melody will be Bb)
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 172 posts since 6 Jul, 2005 from Roma (Italy)
Thanks a lot for helping me out since my question is a bit confused .
so the answer is: it can be possible, but when you will have more theory skills.
I have the feeling that the blues scale is better for major keys am I wrong?
so when I read "try the blues scale for bass" it means use that scale
for everything melody chords bass singing etc.?
thanks a lot for this theory forum sheding some lite
so the answer is: it can be possible, but when you will have more theory skills.
I have the feeling that the blues scale is better for major keys am I wrong?
so when I read "try the blues scale for bass" it means use that scale
for everything melody chords bass singing etc.?
thanks a lot for this theory forum sheding some lite
-
- KVRist
- 179 posts since 1 May, 2007 from Apartment Zero
JJF, yeah I can see how it might read that way, I could have made that clearer. Even harder than music is typing clearly about music
Signal chain, the "blues scale" works great for minor (it has a minor third degree). Generally music that uses the blues scale also contains elements drawn from other scales as well. You can make a melody or a bass line from just the blues scale, but you can't make the chords typically used with it from just the blues scale itself.
So the short answer is, to compose a piece, complete with bass, melody, and harmony, in the style typical of tunes that use the blues scale, you will need more notes than are available in just the blues scale.
To understand in an abstract sense why will require some theory, but you can learn a lot just by fooling around with it, seeing how it sounds in different contexts, what works and what doesn't.
Signal chain, the "blues scale" works great for minor (it has a minor third degree). Generally music that uses the blues scale also contains elements drawn from other scales as well. You can make a melody or a bass line from just the blues scale, but you can't make the chords typically used with it from just the blues scale itself.
So the short answer is, to compose a piece, complete with bass, melody, and harmony, in the style typical of tunes that use the blues scale, you will need more notes than are available in just the blues scale.
To understand in an abstract sense why will require some theory, but you can learn a lot just by fooling around with it, seeing how it sounds in different contexts, what works and what doesn't.
-
- KVRist
- 274 posts since 15 Nov, 2004 from Gainesville, FL USA
Umm.. i still think the answers provide thus far are pretty shitty.
Are you familiar with the 'modes?' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode)
Try playing a Cmajor scale (C ionian mode) in rhythmic sync with an A minor scale (A aeolian mode) -- both of which would fall in the key of C.
If you can do it in a manner which is pleasant to your ears, then there's the answer to your question.
Are you familiar with the 'modes?' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode)
Try playing a Cmajor scale (C ionian mode) in rhythmic sync with an A minor scale (A aeolian mode) -- both of which would fall in the key of C.
If you can do it in a manner which is pleasant to your ears, then there's the answer to your question.
Ideas are bulletproof... I am not.
-
JumpingJackFlash JumpingJackFlash https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=44005
- KVRian
- 1227 posts since 10 Oct, 2004
Nuffink will probably be able to go into more details, but basically you can write vertically or horizontally. Vertical writing would be using the notes of the chords, but horizontal writing would be using scales where most notes fit with the chord, but some don't.
There are many different sorts of scales. (See here for some example). As long as enough notes in the scale are consonant (fit with the chords), then they are a possibility to use.
Playing a F# major scale over a C dominant seventh chord would rarely sound good. That is because they don't have many notes in common. However, playing say a C pentatonic scale would work fine, as would playing the Mixolydian mode starting on C. The C major scale would be an obvious choice, and the blues scale on C might also work (though be careful with the thirds). - You don't have to use every note of the scale though.
The blues scale is often used in jazz as kind of default; it fits with many things. Try and experiment (improvise if you like) over a chord sequence or something and try to get a feel for what works and what doesn't. If you hit a note that doesn't work, it can usually be resolved by moving up or down by step onto a note which does sound good. When you change chord, you might like to use another scale (although you might not have to).
As I said before, it's more about consonance and dissonance than it is about scales and key.
There are many different sorts of scales. (See here for some example). As long as enough notes in the scale are consonant (fit with the chords), then they are a possibility to use.
Playing a F# major scale over a C dominant seventh chord would rarely sound good. That is because they don't have many notes in common. However, playing say a C pentatonic scale would work fine, as would playing the Mixolydian mode starting on C. The C major scale would be an obvious choice, and the blues scale on C might also work (though be careful with the thirds). - You don't have to use every note of the scale though.
The blues scale is often used in jazz as kind of default; it fits with many things. Try and experiment (improvise if you like) over a chord sequence or something and try to get a feel for what works and what doesn't. If you hit a note that doesn't work, it can usually be resolved by moving up or down by step onto a note which does sound good. When you change chord, you might like to use another scale (although you might not have to).
As I said before, it's more about consonance and dissonance than it is about scales and key.
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 172 posts since 6 Jul, 2005 from Roma (Italy)
I'm doing electronic music where the sound and production after personal taste, really matter, but now I think theory is not evil any more it's a challenge takes me to an other level of interest toward music
Beboop, thanks a lot for this.
Jumpingjackflag what you're doing here is invaluable.
videzirah no no familiar with modes, still a mistery but if slowly, really slowly, I have got closed to them, well I'm sort of happy with it, that means it might be the time I have to approach them in some way
not a bad thing at all I guess
tha,
marco.
Beboop, thanks a lot for this.
Jumpingjackflag what you're doing here is invaluable.
videzirah no no familiar with modes, still a mistery but if slowly, really slowly, I have got closed to them, well I'm sort of happy with it, that means it might be the time I have to approach them in some way
not a bad thing at all I guess
tha,
marco.
-
- KVRer
- 13 posts since 17 May, 2007 from Nashville Tn.
I think in "keys" because they relate to the natural harmonic overtone series. But in modern music, "key" is just another device to be used.
Staying in key gives me a sense of home. Going completely out of key gives me a disconnected, capricious feeling. What your question brings up is my favorite use of keys. The idea of simultaneously using elements from different keys. To me, that's what harmonic and melodic minor do.
The natural A minor, A B C D E F G, doesn't allow me to have that cool V I feeling, because it's Vm to Im because it only has one half step move, B to C, so it doesn't "pull" me to the Im the way it does in major. So I borrow from the key of A major and put in a G#, harmonic minor, that way I can have an E major and that G# moves half step to the root of the Am giving me two half step moves...even stronger than V I in major.
Now this works fine for what Jumpingjackflag accurately calls "vertical" music. But, then, when I want to write melodies, I end up with that pesky F to G# that makes everything sound Middle Eastern, so to write "horizontally" I want something else. Going back and borrowing more from A major, I put in an F# to make get rid of the aug second, but now it sounds too "major" so I give myself the option of using the F and G as natural (traditionally I'd do this moving down melodically, but I only use tradition as a gimmick), so that gives me the melodic minor. What I'm doing is existing in two keys at the same time: Am (Aeolian mode of the C diatonic) and A major.
Melodic and Harmonic minor are precedents for using two scales at once, so I'd just go ahead and do it.
I recommend writing whatever feels good, then figuring out what you did. Music theory, to me, at best, is an explanation of what gets me off.
Staying in key gives me a sense of home. Going completely out of key gives me a disconnected, capricious feeling. What your question brings up is my favorite use of keys. The idea of simultaneously using elements from different keys. To me, that's what harmonic and melodic minor do.
The natural A minor, A B C D E F G, doesn't allow me to have that cool V I feeling, because it's Vm to Im because it only has one half step move, B to C, so it doesn't "pull" me to the Im the way it does in major. So I borrow from the key of A major and put in a G#, harmonic minor, that way I can have an E major and that G# moves half step to the root of the Am giving me two half step moves...even stronger than V I in major.
Now this works fine for what Jumpingjackflag accurately calls "vertical" music. But, then, when I want to write melodies, I end up with that pesky F to G# that makes everything sound Middle Eastern, so to write "horizontally" I want something else. Going back and borrowing more from A major, I put in an F# to make get rid of the aug second, but now it sounds too "major" so I give myself the option of using the F and G as natural (traditionally I'd do this moving down melodically, but I only use tradition as a gimmick), so that gives me the melodic minor. What I'm doing is existing in two keys at the same time: Am (Aeolian mode of the C diatonic) and A major.
Melodic and Harmonic minor are precedents for using two scales at once, so I'd just go ahead and do it.
I recommend writing whatever feels good, then figuring out what you did. Music theory, to me, at best, is an explanation of what gets me off.