PMI vs EWQL - Steinway and Bosendorfer - which is better?

[Compyfox]

Just a little question out of curiosity and I hope I get some feedback from current users.


I wanted to grab the Steinway B and Bösendorfer 275 from EWQL last autumn while they did a clearance sale. Unfortunately I did this via a friend and never saw the sample CDs, which really pissed me off.

Now seeing, that Sampletekk offers a Group Buy and if you join, you can get all samplepacks for 50% less (the goal was already reached, too), I finally have the chance again to get such pianos for dirt cheap, rather than buy them for three times us much money "new" from BestService Germany.


The questions are now:
a) how good are Sampletekk Samples actually?
b) What are the differences between Steinway B (EastWest) and Steinway D (PMI)
c) What are the differences between Bösendorfer 275 (EastWest) and Bösendorfer 290 (PMI)
d) Are the Sampletekk Samples actually on "real" CDs/DVDs pressed (in a CD case with cover and the like) or just selfburned with a sticky label?
e) anybody had bad experience with them?
f) Would you rather recommend Steinway D or Black Grand Steinway D? What about Estonia, Yamaha C7 and Emperor from their sample range?
g) should I rather get GIGA3 samples or Kontakt2 versions? (I don't have GIGA3 but Kontakt 2, which can load GIGA samples)


I already have Maestro Malmsjö and most of the other well known free SF2s (as can be found via my torrent tracker on my page), not to mention I have the pianos in Halion 2, Siedlaczek Classic Collection and if I can remember, there was one in Kontakt 2, too. Then again, I'm looking for expressive classics, good to handle, huge sound for solo's, addons in orchestras, pop music, etc. This is why I always speculated to get these two particular pianos for my equipment range. Though there're so many different versions out there, you simply don't know WHAT to get, what has a good reputation, which has the most expressive samples, most layers, easiest play modes, etc?

Any info would be gladly appreciated.

[dougsyo]

I have the PMI Emperor (which is a B290) but not the PMI Bosendorfer B290. I'm not really sure what the difference is - different piano, different # of samples per key, different studio, or what. Perhaps comparing the pages will tell.

Edit: Emperor Bosendorfer 290SE, 24 bit, 12 velocity layers, 12 pedal down, and release samples. Sampling computer-controlled.

PMI Bosendorfer 290: 24 bit, up to 16 recorded velocity layers, separate pedal-down, release samples, separate "wet" and "dry" layers. If I recall correctly, this is the piano that EW offered with the Kompakt wrapper - I think Michiel Post said that on his website.
---
Having said that, I am completely satisfied with all of the pianos I've bought from Sampletekk - both the ST originals (Rain Piano, 7CGjr) and the PMI pianos (Emperor and Old Lady). Each of these pianos is different and has a unique character. I have enough "stock Steinways" that I didn't see a need for Black Grand, Old Lady was more to my taste.

I'm also satisfied with the organs (baroque, positif, pump and theatre), renaissance flutes and Solina string ensemble. As far as "bad experience", if I remember right, I wasn't happy with the carillon and/or small harp, but I don't remember what it was now and I don't have them handy to check. If you hunt up the Sampletekk threads in the marketplace, you can find more detail - I know FCD is another Sampletekk fan.

I have Kontakt2, so I bought the K2 versions (they're actually multi-format, supporting Kontakt, EXS24 and Halion). Assuming the same bit depth (16 vs 24), I wouldn't buy Giga if Kontakt version was available, unless I also had Giga/GVI. IIRC, Kontakt2 can't load Giga3, just Giga2. Some pianos have K2 scripts available, either bundled or available for download.

I believe I once saw that Sampletekk says that DVD's are created on-demand, but I can't seem to find that now. With the exception of the baroque pipe organ (which I bought from PMI before the "friendly takeover") I've bought everything by download.

Doug

[beej]

I bought PMI's Old Lady from Sampletekk a few months back, and I thought it was beautiful. And today I just picked up the White Grand in their group buy (60% off, and at that price it was just rude not too). Haven't had a chance to install it yet though...

I just get the downloads from Sampletekk - I've got enough DVD's lying around...

[Compyfox]

Please keep it coming folks, especially the technical aspect of Steinway B/D and Bösendorfer 275/290.

I also read that a lot of you people rather go for "old lady" rather than 290 and White Grand/Black Grand rather than the regular Steinway D. A specific reason for that? Is it really true that actually the PMI Versions are licensed by EastWest to sell under their flag?

[dougsyo]

Old Lady is a vintage (1923) Steinway, as opposed to a newer one like Black Grand. Emperor and PMI Bosendorfer are both B290's. Not sure which you'd choose, but based on the demo tunes I picked the Emperor.

The EastWest Bosendorfer 290 is the PMI Bosendorfer 290 - EastWest PMI Bosendorfer 290 Grand piano virtual instrument. By getting it from Sampletekk, you pay less (esp now during the group buy) and you don't get the Kompakt wrapper, but it also means you have to have your own software to play it back (Giga, Halion, Kontakt2, EXS24, or compatible like VSampler or translator like EXSC).

Doug

[beej]

Crap, I might have to go and get the 290 now as well...

[Compyfox]

The EastWest Bosendorfer 290 is the PMI Bosendorfer 290 - EastWest PMI Bosendorfer 290 Grand piano virtual instrument.

Interesting. Then I guess the "Black Grand" could be the "big" Steinway VSTi they're selling now, and "Emperor" is actually the EW/PMI Bosendorfer 290. So... it seems like PMI samples are really sold under the banner from EastWest, even the Steinway B. It would be definitely cool if Doug Rogers could confirm thism as it'd make things so much more easier.

VSTi wrapper or not, doesn't matter. I like to use the samples whereever I want them to anyway. So far the upper posts are definitely appreciated. If somebody can add to that, keep it coming please.

[dougsyo]

The EastWest Bosendorfer 290 is the PMI Bosendorfer 290 - EastWest PMI Bosendorfer 290 Grand piano virtual instrument.

Interesting. Then I guess the "Black Grand" could be the "big" Steinway VSTi they're selling now, and "Emperor" is actually the EW/PMI Bosendorfer 290.

"Black Grand" is Sampletekk, not PMI (although Sampletekk is now the PMI distributor - and it appears that Michiel Post is now working for SoundsOnline), but there are some PMI Steinways as well.

Both Emperor and PMI Bosendorfer are (different) sample sets of a B290. The latter is the one that EastWest is marketing (and IIRC this is characterized as "darker"), but Emperor was more to my tastes. I don't know whose Steinway they have. I remember someone (Garritan?) was going to have the "Authorized" (by Steinway) sample set.

The only other piano Sampletekk has that I have a modest interest in is the White Grand Jr - IIRC someone said that was a Malmsjo. I already have C7 (7CGjr), Vintage Steinway (Old Lady), B290 (Emperor) and upright (Rain Piano), not to mention the IK/SR piano collection and whatever came bundled with K2 and ST2XL, so I'm pretty-much in "fat city" piano-wise.

Doug

[Compyfox]

If you want a Malmsjö, I still offer it in my torrent batch - the very same that Maestro once released (but put down due to bandwidth issues). Just follow the link in my sig.


Hm... like I said, for this kind of information, it'd be best if somebody from EastWest could answer this, but they barely hover these boards. It's still a lot of information though.

The Steinway B however could be now a joint-venture thing with Steinberg, as they released a VSTi dedicated to that. According to Doug Rogers in a mail conversation with him, he told me that their Steinway B is now in EWQL Colossus.

Either way, all of them are tempting, just need to find out which is actually the best for me, but I definitely want both, even though I have a lot of pianos "bundled" already or as SF2s, but none sound that good IMO.



EDIT:
I did some research on both pianos, especially Steinway B/D and Bösendorfer 275 and 290.

First of all the Steinway:
The difference between the B and the D is actually the length and the width. Bigger pianos offer lower ranges due to the internal strings for the keys being longer. The B is 221cm long, the D is 274cm long. The first of both is more used in home and smaller environments (schools) due to it's rich grand piano sound, but still a decent size to fit it everywhere. The D (also tagged "Dora") is mostly used as stage (grand) piano in orchestras and solo pianists.

The Steinway has a more brighter sound due to the fact that they use more metal and don't use the piano body as additional "additive synthesis". This makes it a bit more flat on the lower ends, though it is famous for that.


The Bösendorfer is actually lesser known/used brand, but popular in the town of music, Vienna. Bösendorfer also have different sizes like Steinway, whereas the sizes are defined in numbers from 170 to 290 (which are in cm). The pianos from 170 to 225 range from sub-contra octave F to c5, while everything above ranges from sub-contra octave C to c5, half an octave more.

The difference to the Steinway pianos, and this is what makes them popular as accompanying instrument or even instrument for chamber music, is the fact that Bösendorfer not only uses different wood but the body is also used as additional "additive synthesis" (don't flame me for that, this is what I get as translation!). Therefore the sound of the piano is more deep, more warm due to the vibrating body.


This really makes it a bit more easier to understand. Though I really don't know if the sound of a Steinway B differs much from a D due to the size, same with the Bösendorfer 275 and 290 (who only differs in size of about 15cm, but the stings seem to be the same).

If somebody's out there with actual knowledge of those two pianos (aka who's a real player and piano enthusiast) can maybe elaborate on that a bit? That'd sure be interesting to know.

[Compyfox]

I wanna bump this again, maybe there is a piano enthusiast among us who can clear the difference in sound with Steinway B/D and Bösendorfer 275 and 290.

I'd also like to hear more impressins about Sampletekk, especially how their shipped DVDs are, if the DVDs feature multi-format, what the shipping prices are, etc.


Thanks in advance.

[beej]

Compy - also check out the NorthernSounds forum for types with this kind of piano library experience - you might get the more experienced info you are looking for there...

[Compyfox]

Might DEFINITELY be a solution, indeed. Thanks for the hint.

[Shy]

I really don't know about the real piano models and their various variations, but relating to the sample libraries and nothing else, I prefer the PMI recording of the Bosendorfer 290 by far over all the others (Old Lady, Emperor, etc). It's a very unique recording, sounds so much sweeter and alive. Just listening to the samples is enough, immediately the different, nice character won me over the other libraries.

[matto]

Some more answers to your questions, Compyfox:

1-The BLack Grand (which is a Steinway D) runs circles around EW's Steinway B and PMI's Steinway D.

2-Sampletekk Pianos are among the highest quality piano samples, really wonderfully recorded and meticulously edited .

3-The PMI Emperor and PMI Boesendorfer 290 (which is/was also sold by Eastwest as EW Boesendorfer 290) are both 290's, but different instruments. The Emperor has more recorded layers (12 pedal up and 12 pedal down) and is thus more expressive, however the PMI 290 has two mic perspectives, close (-ish) and ambient. IMHO the Emperor's sound is brighter and and more suited to many musical styles, 290 is darker and has more of a classical sound.
The Emperor is a bit "noisy" on it's very lowest velocity layers (mostly birds whistling ), but this is only noticable in a solo piano settings, and only if you bring up those lowest layers a lot by reducing the velocity modulation or thru heavy compression.

4-You're right about the differences of the real Steinways and Boesendorfers, it's largely a difference in length. The bigger instruments generally have a more powerful lowend. Although this is much less of an issue with (recorded) samples than it would be when the real instrument is played in a Concert Hall.
The large instruments are generally considered the flagships of each manufacturer's product line, the smaller ones are designed to accomodate more limited spaces and budgets.

5-If you are considering buying a Steinway B, you should also look into Art Vista's Virtual Grand Piano, which is probably the most widely acclaimed Steinway B sample currently on the market.

6-FWIW my most used pianos are Sampletekk Black Grand and 7CG, and the PMI Emperor. The Old Lady (also a Steinway D) is nice as well, it has perhaps a bit more character than the Black Grand but is less versatile. I also use Sampletekk WG a lot when I need more of a rock or pop type sound that can cut thru a dense mix. And the Rain Piano is nice if you need something a little...less pristine.
The rest of my piano samples (Vintaudio C7 and Uprights, NI Akoustik Piano) don't see much use these days.

7-I have never had a problem with a single DVD from Sampletekk, unlike several other smaller (and even some larger) vendors. I don't think you'd go wrong with any of Sampletekk's pianos, you simply have to figure out which suits your taste and style of music the most (and perhaps system resources could be an issue too).

matto

[Compyfox]

Do they put the samples on DVD just for better storing (aka the downloaded version) or are these really multisamples on the DVDs and it doesn't matter which format I choose?