Order of inserts on a mixing desk

[Van_Mocen]

Hey there,
I've heard many people saying that there is an order on a mixing desk when it comes to add affects by insert. Some people reckon that EQ comes first, followed by compression, etc and some of the effects should be put on the pre-fader and others on the post-fader. Can anyone give me an idea of why this happens ? I know that in some cases it's better to put put compression after reverb (or is it the other way round?) so that the reverb trail is not compressed as well.. well, i'll leave it to ya. cheers!

[BertKoor]

Taste... Like pouring some milk in your coffee, or some coffee in your milk

[Van_Mocen]

useless

[rashid204]

What are you talking about. That is the greatest advice ever. That blows the mind open. Anyways, it does depend on application. Sometimes you may want the eq first, or you may want to compress then eq.

[kritikon]

useless

Not in the slightest.
He was perfectly correct. You do it in whatever order you prefer or whatever order suits the music best. If you don't like the answer...tough. Your question might be considered useless, as it has no definitive answer. How long is a piece of string? Fuctifino.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Hey there,
I've heard many people saying that there is an order on a mixing desk when it comes to add affects by insert. Some people reckon that EQ comes first, followed by compression, etc and some of the effects should be put on the pre-fader and others on the post-fader. Can anyone give me an idea of why this happens ? I know that in some cases it's better to put put compression after reverb (or is it the other way round?) so that the reverb trail is not compressed as well.. well, i'll leave it to ya. cheers!

As far as what comes first EQ or compressor, there's no "stock" way of doing it. Just remember that EQ'ing prior to the compressor will change what gets compressed (i.e. the sound of the compression itself) as well as the tone, whereas EQ'ing after will just change the tone after compression (big difference between the two).

You generally don't want reverb before compression because it will bring the tails up in an unnatural way, but this can be used as an effect and therefore is always an option. For instance, if you run a parallel snare track and want a gated reverb sound, you can throw a reverb in first then a compressor followed by a gate. If done right the compressor can bring the reverb up a bit more in a neat way right before the gate chops it off (note, this is just one way of doing this).

Aside from that I generally follow the rule of modulation effects (chorus, flanger, phasers, etc.) early in the chain, EQ and compression almost anywhere (except after delays or reverbs, EXCEPT when I'm doing it to enhance the effect in an unnatural way) and delays and reverbs towards the end. Oh, and vinyl effects would also go last-ish. Nothing worse then dust crackles with reverb.

BTW, in case I wasn't clear enough above, I disregard the above concepts about where in the order things go regularly. Your best bet...listen to what was said earlier and play around. If you know how the effects work and what they're doing, it becomes easy to imagine how you can achieve the sounds you want. Once you've got that, you'll find yourself doing things knowing what the outcome will be and not caring about how you got there.

[Kim Lajoie]

Hey there,
I've heard many people saying that there is an order on a mixing desk when it comes to add affects by insert. Some people reckon that EQ comes first, followed by compression, etc and some of the effects should be put on the pre-fader and others on the post-fader. Can anyone give me an idea of why this happens ? I know that in some cases it's better to put put compression after reverb (or is it the other way round?) so that the reverb trail is not compressed as well.. well, i'll leave it to ya. cheers!

As Mr Twin wrote, there's no absolute "right" or "wrong". However, there is an artistic judgement you have to make, which requires an understanding. Taking your examples:

EQ versus Compression:
The order in which you use EQ and compression will depend on the sound, what you want to do with the sound, and the rest of the mix. By using EQ first, followed by compression (sound->EQ->Compression), you are adjusting the frequency spectrum of the sound, then applying compression to the adjusted sound. You might think of this as "compressing the EQ". This is useful because the compressor will respond in a natural and predictable way because it is operating on what you hear. You can use the EQ to remove problems and shape the sound for the mix, and the compressor will respond to the "fixed" sound instead of the "raw" sound. The downside is that sometimes a compressor will adjust the percieved frequency response of a sound (usually by reducing the low end or the high end), and it's not as easy to compensate for it with pre-EQ.

Conversely, by using compression first, followed by EQ (sound->Compression->EQ), you are adjusting the dynamics of the sound, and then adjusting the frequency spectrum. You might think of this as "EQing the compression". This can be useful if your compressor is reducing the percieved high end or low end of the sound frequency spectrum - the EQ can compensate for any "funk" the compressor is adding. The downside is that the compressor is not responding to the sound you hear, which means it might not sound as natural or predictable. As an extreme example, your sound might have some significant low end rumble or resonance - if you compress before EQing, the compression will respond to the rumble or resonance even if you greatly reduce it with post-EQ.

A hybrid approach might look like EQ->compression->EQ, where the first EQ (before compression) is used to address any problems in the sound and shape it in the mix, and the second EQ (after compression) is used to add any final touches or compensate for compression "funk".

Which approach you use entirely depends on your sound and your mix. It's important to understand how it works though, so you can make an informed artistic judgement.


Compression versus Reverb:
Like EQ and compression, it might be helpful to look at this as a choice between "reverbing the compression" (sound->compressor->reverb) or "compressing the reverb" (sound->reverb->compressor). Reverb is usually an additive process - it adds a component (the reverberation) to the existing sound. If you add the reverb last (after comrpession), you'll be able to produce a conventional, natural sound. That's because the signal being sent to the reverb has the same (or similar) dynamic response to the final sound we'll hear in the mix. Also, the added reverb itself isn't being significantly processed, which means it will sound close to what the reverb designer intended.

By doing it the other way - "compressing the reverb", you are directly altering the dynamic rseponse of the reverb itself. This is not a common process, but may be useful for achieving special effects or unnatural ambiences. For example, smooth deep compression on a long reverb tail may lengthen the reverb tail or make it sound "deeper". More aggressive comrpession can create a very unnatural pumping effect that emphasises the reverb without washing out the original sound.

The best thing to do is to experiment, listen and learn.


Pre-fader versus post-fader:
Without going too deep into mixer topologies, the channel fader sets the gain (you might also think of it as the level or volume, though it's not quite the same thing) of the sound going into the mix bus (also called the 2-bus or the master channel). Placing effects before the fader (pre-fader) mean that those effects will "hear" the same level, no matter what the fader is set to. Placing effects after the fader (post-fader) will mean that thsoe effects will "hear" a level depending on what the fader is set to. This is particularly noticeable with effects such as compression, which respond differently depending on the level of the sound. If you set up yoru compressor pre-fader, then it will behave the same no matter what the fader is set to. On the other hand, if you set up your comrpessor post-fader, then higher fader gain will result in more compression and lower fader gain will result in less comprssion. In effect, you will use the fader to simultaneously set the audible volume of the sound in the mix AND "drive" the compression. Normally this is not such a good idea beacuse it makes it more difficult to fine-tune the mix (changing the volume changes the compression too).

Post-fader effects are typically not used often, except for sends (also called "aux sends" or "FX sends"). The "send" effectively duplicates the sound and sends one copy to the send channel (the other copy is sent through the original channel as normal). If a wet reverb is applied to the send channel, you'll have two channels making sound - the original "dry" (no reverb) channel, and the "wet" (reverb) send channel. If the send is post-fader, then the sound level that is sent to the reverb depends on the fader setting. This way, if you adjust the fader (to fine tune the mix, or perhaps automate a fade in or out) the RELATIVE level of the reverb stays the same. On the other hand, if the send it pre-fader, the absolute level of the reverb stays the same (so if you turn the fader all the way down, you'll still hear some reverb, and if you turn the fader all the way up, you'll hear less reverb relative to the original sound).

Again, the best thing to do is try it out. Listen and learn.

Hope that helps.

-Kim.

[Tronam]

A consummate professional, as always, Kim.

[ahjteam]

I sometimes made a list of the order of effects that I prefer to use (especially for guitars), but here it goes again:

INPUT SIGNAL
GAIN
EQ (cut only)
SIDECHAIN COMPRESSOR
NOISEGATE
WAH-WAH
COMPRESSOR (low treshold, low ratio)
DE-ESSER
MAKEUP GAIN
OVERDRIVE/DISTORTION
MODULATION (flanger, chorus, phaser, tremolo etc)
FSU (bitcrusher etc)
DELAY
REVERB
NOISE GATE
GATED REVERB
COMPRESSOR (higher threshold, higher ratio. good for vocals when combined with the other, evens the screams, shouts and emphasizes a little)
EQ (mainly cutting, but occasionally some boosting)
AUTOPANNER
GAIN (slider)
LIMITER (post slider)
NOISE SUPRESSOR (like BOSS NS-2)
OUTPUT SIGNAL

of course, I propably use 2-4 of the effects at max per channel.

[LXNDR1]

thanks Kim, that breakedown of Pre and Post was illuminating, always wanted to finally figure out how it works especially for sends

[audiorules]

Effects are typically not inserted, they are on sends, typcially post fader. Dynamics are generally on inserts. Whether the console is pre or post eq on the insert varies by console manufacturer, and how the desk is configured. Most are pre eq, since being post, eq changes would affect the dynamic processing.

Prefader sends are typically used for monitoring sends, and not for mixing.

ITB, this is of course far more flexable, since eq and dynamics are both treated as plugins, however processor power conservation is best when time based effects, delay, reverb, etc, are used on busses rather than as inserts. (one reverb can be used for multiple tracks, rather than multiple reverbs of the same nature on individual tracks.)

[kritikon]

INPUT SIGNAL
GAIN
EQ (cut only)
SIDECHAIN COMPRESSOR
NOISEGATE
WAH-WAH
COMPRESSOR (low treshold, low ratio)
DE-ESSER
MAKEUP GAIN
OVERDRIVE/DISTORTION
MODULATION (flanger, chorus, phaser, tremolo etc)
FSU (bitcrusher etc)
DELAY
REVERB
NOISE GATE
GATED REVERB
COMPRESSOR (higher threshold, higher ratio. good for vocals when combined with the other, evens the screams, shouts and emphasizes a little)
EQ (mainly cutting, but occasionally some boosting)
AUTOPANNER
GAIN (slider)
LIMITER (post slider)
NOISE SUPRESSOR (like BOSS NS-2)
OUTPUT SIGNAL

I can't imagine it sounds much like a guitar after all those FX.

[ahjteam]

I can't imagine it sounds much like a guitar after all those FX.

You didnt read the last line: of course, I propably use 2-4 of the effects at max

[kritikon]

24 FX

That's even more than you first listed.

[Van_Mocen]

there, thank you very much to those with the NOT useless answers ahah cheers