Vista, is just a phase

[james0tucson]

I was just objecting to hseikens somewhat arrogant & condescending tone James, the suggestion that some of us 'others' who have tried Linux simply didn't have the technical know how, or patience etc. etc. )conveniently sidelining other reasons I made reference to there & below)

When that Dilbert ran, I suspected that Scott Adams worked in my shop and that I was the model for the character. I was a condescending bearded suspenders-wearing old unix guru before it was the cool hip and trendy thing for every college kid to be into.

[diverdee]

Some very well reasoned argumentation & interesting points raised there James0.
Wish I could do as well after pulling a 12 hour shift, but frankly i'm knackered.

edit: I meant the previous long post, not the confession regarding beards & suspenders (suspenders? I do hope you mean braces, but to each their own).

[VitaminD]

P22OST -> Hey, when I booted up Linux just 2 months ago for the first time, I did it on my own...it just takes a bit of research, asking questions before attempting anything and more research. I think a couple of these guys having problems maybe didn't do any homework at all...they just read somewhere that it's good, so they burned a CD and hoped for the best.

The point is though that one shouldn't HAVE to do any homework to get it to work.. it should just work.

I'm trying to remember when anybody said it would be that way with Linux.

I just did.

When I look on a windows install box it says something along the lines of 'Pentium blah class processor, blah amount of memory, blah hard drive space.. etc' It DOESNT say 'Broadcom wifi is incompatible, ATI r200m drivers still having problems, nope you won't be able to use XXXX device either.. too bad so sad.' What has been suggested is one should be forced to do this 'homework' before installing.. and I'm saying thats silly. If the OS is truly that robust it should work on most hardware without issue. There should be (stable, complete) drivers for this hardware..

When I transferred to winXP I didn't do ANY research.. yet it had drivers for all my hardware..

I'm guessing you didn't "transfer to WinXP" from Vax or from a single-board 6800 or a PIC programmer or something. You transferred to WinXP from some other version of Windows, right?

When you made this transfer, did you begin with a blank computer and a Windows install DVD? Were you the only person you knew running that system at the time?

I didn't transfer from my TI-86 either.. whats your point?

I installed on clean drive from a CD... AFAIK Vista is the first DVD release of windows.

on 3 different machines.. no logging into the 'microsoft' forums and asking for terminal commands or any of that nonsense.. (like I've had to do with linux) it just worked.

To you, "terminal commands" are nonsense. To some of us, they are a well developed command shell language worth learning.

I know the commands. I wouldn't be able to function at work without them. The point I was getting at is they shouldn't need to be used by 'everyday' people. Its another level of hassle. (most) people tend to stay away from extra hassles/nonsense... life is filled with enough of it as is.

Linux is still too cryptic and unrefined for prime time..

That's like saying the Chinese language is too cryptic for human beings to use (even when there are billions of people using it!)

Why learn 'Chinese' when we're already speaking 'English'?

its great for development or database applications (for this I really like and use it).. but for home use?

You mean, "not for use in YOUR home." That's reasonable. There are people out there who aren't listening to you up on your rooftop, using it in their homes though. About half the people in my hometown are using it. Those are mostly granparent-aged folks in a farming village. They started getting computers when a certain oil truck driver took it upon himself to distribute them, setup a community internet service, and guess what they OS they run?

These are the very people that I keep hearing Linux is not ready for...
Grannies in farm houses.

If you don't have to install the thing, it's easy to use. Easier, I believe, if installed correctly with certain applications configured, than any version of Windows ever has been.

There are issues, of course, but nothing that justifies the kind of ranting I see you doing here today.

You chose not to run Linux, I suspect for two reasons:

1. It's not well suited, at the application layer, for use as a musical instrument. Agreed.

2. In order to understand it in depth and be a power users, one is expected to become skilled in the use of one or more unix command shells.

Another reason is also quite understandable, but does not entitle you to campaign against its adoption:

You chose the specific applications you want to run (either by title, or globally by "what's readily available in the mass market"), and this goes back to "audio stuff" - ubiquitous on Windows, slowly emerging on Linux - and having made that choice you realize a cost in giving it up in order to "switch to" Linux. I suspect you have not setup a skunkworks system for the express purpose of learning, using, developing Linux. I suspect you think in terms of "switching". Almost certainly a bad idea if your application happens to be audio production.

Setup a linux box for audio because you want to plug in to the wide-open niche of free audio software development. If you're not the kind of geek that would do this, that's cool. Let it go.

Since this is KVR, it's very important to remember that almost everyone here has an application that does not have a 1:1 correspondence in Linux. Also, many people here have chosen hardware that does not even have driver support in Linux (mostly because of the purposely, openly hostile manufacturers), and so the idea that Linux presents a direct alternative is actually quite preposterous.

On the other hand, imagine yourself in Bangalore, Kenya, or Venezuela with a $0.00 budget, a several-generations-old computer, and maybe an old Casio keyboard MIDI controller. If you were also thrust into the Linux world (maybe someone gave you Ubuntu and DeMuDi disks, maybe you have internet access, who knows?) There is a hell of a lot you could do with that $0.00

If it's your first exposure to computers, it's not harder to learn, and the more you learn, the more useful the knowledge becomes for learning further.

That said, my DAW runs Windows XP. I have a machine for editing and burning DVDs that runs Linux because I strongly prefer it. And my DAW is the only place where I run Windows. I switched from Linux to MacOSX for the portable (mainly because I like the Macbook Pro hardware, especially the power management, and because MacOSX is a very good Unix). At work, I run Solaris, Linux, and a teragrid supercomputer version of Linux

Inasmuch as some of the researchers eat sleep shit and breath their research, so they technically "live here", you could say that supercomputer linux is "in the home"....

I think you're missing my point.. you definitely missed the part that I use linux... I have a degree in Computer Science. I just think the level of knowledge necessary to install, use, and properly maintain an Operating System shouldn't require one. With windows it has been 'dumbed down' to a level where its not really a problem.. I show 'everyday' people linux and I might as well have been from the moon. I guess if one has the time and patience to learn a linux OS then fine.. good for them.. but most people I know want to use their PC and not fight it.

anywho.. I think your example is exception more than anything... do you really expect 'grandma' to know how to install their wifi with an ndiswrapper or get X working (if it doesn't come up on first go) ?? NOT-A-CHANCE. In the unlikely event that they DO figure out do you realize how much time a retired person has on their hands to bother with it? I would hate to hear the conversation between them and the guy in india providing tech support.. trying to explain to them a command line statement as long as their hand telling someone to click on a icon is loads easier. Linux has come a ways but still needs to go much further in this respect...

Then when one gets it working where are the Big title games? music software? etc.. oh they're on Mac and Windows.. so why bother hassling with Linux? This is a serious issue... Perhaps the 'condecending unix computer users' don't seem to think its an issue because they've been at it too long to see the other side.. the other POV.. Sure, there are generic brands.. but most people like the real deal.. would you like a generic ferrari or porsche? I suspect if you had the choice you'd want the real deal... not a likeness that may or may not be as capable.

I like Linux.. However, its simply not at a point where its able to take over Windows in all areas... theres no way around that I'm sorry to say.

[hseiken]

So did you get Reason & Ableton Live (or apps of a smiliar pedigree)running on that there Linux install mr hseiken? Or get it working with a creamware pulsar card or the likes therof? Unlike all us obvious numpties, who obviously don't know as much about computers (& such forth) as your obviously erudite & knowledgable self?

If not...... twat off with the arrogant & judgemental attitude good sir!!!!

BTW - once wine, ubuntu etc. etc. run fine with reason, & I understand it's almost there (don't know about Ableton live to be honest) I will likley give the old penguin another try myself.
I like penguins you see.

The only condescending attitude here was yours.

I guess maybe I should have put some background info on *ME* so that you could see that my original post was NOT condescending but more as a 'if i can do it, you can do it'.

I'm still at the point where I'm discovering what I want to use musically, and ReNoise happens to be bought and paid for, so I keep my windows partition (sadly) around...However, as soon as I see my opportunity to erase that partition (I've been annoyed at windows for 10 years now...tired of it), I'm not turning back.

[Lunch Money]

Everyone gets to make decisions based on their own motivations. Who am I to say that the "warm fuzzy" feeling of Linux is a "bad" motivation for switching? I'm not in the habit of disliking warm fuzzies, either. But it seems to me that so MANY Linux evangalists have either the hippie factor or the "I hate MS" factor as their primary reasons for switching, and despite the drawbacks of Linux they'll champion it in order to not have that warm fuzzy feeling diminished (not referring specifically to you, hseiken-- your comments on the whole have turned out to be pretty balanced after all).

And the rhetoric. Piles and piles of rhetoric, which often hides some simple truths. As stated wayy back in the thread, and summed up nicely by koolkeys, just give me the apps and let them work with my hardware. Anything else is just yammering.

Greg

[joshhunsaker]

I didn't look at many of the posts here but regardless I'd just like to say at the off chance that it will be relevant how much I hate vista and (consequently) windows.

My friend designed a flash program that would tell you how crappy vista was going to be today when you clicked on it - kind of like instant weather, only it would never be sunny outside.

The sad thing was that even when it predicted that vista had a very good chance of burning your house and driving your car off a cliff, it only made you wish those things had actually happened instead of you turning on your computer.

[speccyteccy]

Loving Vista here. Needed a new laptop a few months ago - as it wasn't to be my main DAW, the decision to go with Vista was a no-brainer. It's a Core2Duo @1.8Ghz with 2Gb RAM and 128Mb shared graphics. It feels roughly as fast as my desktop - ((Athlon x2 3800/2Gb/XP) - some things slightly faster, some slightly slower. FL and eXT2 work flawlessly (although neither fully utilises both cores).

I'm reasonably UNIX/Linux savvy, but had so many issues with Ubuntu Studio, I gave up the idea of using it for music.

[stk]

(I skipped 3/4 of this thread, so excuse any oversights on my behalf)

Regarding something a few pages back re: Windows' labrinthine codebase - I would be seriously unsuprised if MS came out with a rejigged, tarted-up *nix OS a-la OSX. (complete with stupid mac-style eyecandy, of course )

If nothing else, it would be fricking hilarious to watch the nix hippies crap their pants :hehe:

sk

[joshhunsaker]

the real problem i had with vista was that it was loaded on a computer with 1 gb ram a 3.0ghz single core processor and at least a 512k level 1 cache and my computer couldn't run 4 audio tracks at 44khz/24bit without crapping out

[hseiken]

Lunch, don't get me wrong, I'm not an evangelist for the Penguin followers, however, I've also had a habit of being in a niche...with music, movies, programs, etc., so maybe linux just draws me to it for it's...eh, i guess non-mainstream qualities. However, I also do believe there should be SOME competition in the PC OS market. A lot of the complaints I hear about linux are as you've said: Things not working (which, btw...does anyone check the recommended specs for software? this doubly applies for OS! ), and hardware not being supported...which again, isn't the fault of programmers but the hardware manufacturers. The simbiosis of Windows pushing slower versions feeds the hardware manufacturers money. It's quite plain to see that they feed off each other...I just want out of the vicious cycle, really. I've always had a system that's a few years behind 'the times' because I also believe in pushing hardware to the limit, not upgrading because I can't do what I want to do. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I don't, but the challenge (at least musically) feeds my creativity, so it's never been a problem for me to have, say, Win98 when XP was well into full force (up until a few months ago, I was still churning out music on a 700mhz system, happily).

At any rate, I seem to have started rambling about other things...all I'm saying is that without user support of some kind, the hardware/windows cycle of 'keep ugrading' will continue in it's own black hole and linux won't get those apps and hardware support that people complain about. It's kind of a thing where your actions will get things done, not waiting for things to change. :\ In that regard, I figured I'd do my part as well...plus, I just hate windows. Hehehe...

Guess maybe I killed everyone's view of myself yet again...oh well...

Cheers!

[Lunch Money]

I understand what you're saying, but it's a circular argument. "Speak with your wallet" only works when there's the capacity to do so. For what it's worth, I'm one of the only people I know who plunked down at a retail outlet (Future Shop) for a boxed Linux version (at the time, it was some flavour of Mandrake, I think 8.1), so I've chipped in at least a little to the cause. But in general, a push for change would be more effective coming from the opposite way. If there's something compelling for consumers to spend their money on before they'll speak with their wallet.

Which is why Linux relies on the "Hey, the vast majority of the software you can get is FREE!" That's enough of an appeal to lure a lot of people away from Windows. For my laptop, that was enough of a draw. But not for my music machine. Rather than glorify something for being free, I'd rather just BUY a distro (again) when I know it's going to work. So I'm quite willing to speak with my wallet, but I'm not willing to just throw money or time away.

Linux is getting there slowly, but REALLY slowly... I've been saying "it's getting there" for 6 years or so. Some manufacturers (Nvidia, no?) include Linux drivers for their hardware. At least one distributor (Dell) has toyed with offering Linux pre-installed on a grand basis. But it's a slow burn because nobody has been able to give the majority of manufacturers the raw monetary incentive (business is business) to get it done. And in that 6 years, it's not like there has been a "world" of change in desktop Linux. Significant change yes, a "world" of change, no.

Circular arguments are never really "won". There's something to be said for end-users taking a leap (which I've done), but there's also something to be said for giving them the opportunity to do so (ie. a compelling, easy, working Linux distro, which is the design goal of Ubuntu which hasn't been reached quite yet). Once consumers have a way to speak with their wallets that isn't cutting off their noses to spite their faces, the circle will close and Linux will pick up momentum exponentially.

Greg

[Jeremy_NSL]

Just on the topic of Vista... I recently set up wi-fi on a friend's new Acer Vista laptop - which was my first exposure to Vista.

Ok, looks pretty nice. Functionality I didn't really have a chance to determine but its basically XP + a few new features it seems. Fair enough.

But performance! My god! This was a 1.8ghz 'Core Solo' notebook with 512mb RAM. Just excruciating. Shutdown/boottimes were at the 'coffee-break' level. Just opening IE took what seemed like 30sec. And this computer is no slouch. I know for a fact it would fly in XP for simple tasks.

Sure, probably its the 512mb - but then what is Acer thinking selling Vista laptops with this level of RAM? And what is Microsoft thinking even *letting* you install Vista with 512mb?

I would say her computer performed on par with a Windows XP installation I did with a P2-300, 64mb ram. No joke.

[ouroboros]

it sure seems like they are trying to give it away in the stores - not the upgrade version, but the full version was advertised for $70 last weekend, no strings attached.

[rockstar_not]

I finally got around to reading a copy of a 'smart computing' magazine that a friend bought for me to pass the time recovering in the hospital after an appendectomy.

It was a 'intro to Vista' issue - and since I have no plans to go Vista anytime soon, I just let the magazine collect dust.

Finally cracked it open this past week and read something about being able to use USB jump drives as system RAM.

So, does this actually work, and what about speed of the memory? You can get SD cards and a reader for way cheaper than system RAM, and if it did work, I would have expected the SD or flash RAM prices to start going up instead of their continual downward movement.

[intel]

At least one distributor (Dell) has toyed with offering Linux pre-installed on a grand basis.

Dell used to offer their "N Series", which were Dimensions that sold without Windows. they came with BeOS standard with the option for some free flavor of Linux and were advertised as being "built for alternative operating systems" (I'm paraphrasing). I bought one because I wasn't interested in upgrading to XP at the time and just figured I'd plunk my '98 or 2k on the box and be done with it. 3 days and 5 hours w/ tech support later its finally revealed that Dell will only offer support if I buy a copy of XP and install that on the machine, since they can't guarantee that the hardware configuration will work with any other OS (not even, according the the tech support guy, the one that shipped with the computer).

if that was them toying with the idea then the level of support would never amount to a legitimate direction for the company to take.