Vista, is just a phase

[Lunch Money]

DuX: I'm not behind even a lick of the code for BBA, which is all taken care of by a range of very talented people. Mully does the distinctive BBA GUIs, and I just whip together some documentation and take care of some other admin stuff. Read all about it at the "Meet the Bugs" link from the main page. Glad you enjoy them!

I value simplicity, but I don't even think you have to turn off ALL the GUI elements of XP. Dunno 'bout Vista. But for XP, just switching to the Silver instead of Blue, and disabling a few of the silly ones is enough. All the stuff that's easily exposed by the OS itself without obscure arcane tweaks. Doesn't take much time or work, and even without disabling most of it, I don't find XP's GUI to be obtrusive. When I go back to a machine using 2K or if I switch to "classic" on XP, I pretty much gag. There's simple, and then there's gross.

Your screenshot above falls into the "gross" category. <chuckle> LED fonts are not high for legibility.

[Z3R0T0N1N]

can't be bothered to read the whole thing, but i did want to respond to three points:

re: graphics software on linux - as a professional in graphics / web / stuff, i have used GIMP and Inkscape exclusively for over a year (on Windows mostly) and have not missed Potatoshop at all. The only tool that i have ever missed in Inkscape is Illustrator's mesh tool. but inkscape has some very nice features that make up for it (for me anyway). And with GIMP, it's more than just not missing potatoshop, i actually prefer GIMP.
I'm not saying it's right for everyone, but i am saying that the opinions expressed about these two programs as fact are not inline with my experience, or the 1000s of people who use them regularly in a professional capacity.

2) linux usability / viability for audio - Both Ubuntu Studio and Jacklab are nearly as stable as windows, and (in my experience) more stable that McOperating System. I am typing from ubuntu studio right now, and i have to say, this has not crashed on me even once. It's almost as kill-proof as windows (i honestly can't remember the last time my windows system went down) and i am very impressed with it. Everything i have used on this has been rock solid. Jack, combined with the built in (no compiling needed) low-latency kernel makes this an excellent and perfectly viable pro-audio system. And as someone mentioned, Receptor is Linux too, so the idea that linux can't be taken seriously for audio is a little bit short-sighted.

3)Vista does offer quite a bit of cool stuff for audio users in particular. If you are an office user, then i can't really think of any good reason to upgrade (other than you don't have a choice, but then try finding a McComputer with OS9 on it - same thing really. Anyway, you can get XP machines from Dell.
The only thing that I think sucks is the whole digital rights management fiasco, and MS corporation's refusal to support web standards properly and exhaustively in IE. But then, same goes with other machines besides linux. Apple for instance - buy your music from i(hate)tunes, and you have to "illegally" crack your own legally purchased music if you want to play it on non-apple hardware, or play it on another machine with a good music player.

[bullshark]

3)Vista does offer quite a bit of cool stuff for audio users in particular.

What are those?

[Lunch Money]

re: graphics software on linux - as a professional in graphics / web / stuff, i have used GIMP and Inkscape exclusively for over a year (on Windows mostly) and have not missed Potatoshop at all. The only tool that i have ever missed in Inkscape is Illustrator's mesh tool. but inkscape has some very nice features that make up for it (for me anyway). And with GIMP, it's more than just not missing potatoshop, i actually prefer GIMP.
I'm not saying it's right for everyone, but i am saying that the opinions expressed about these two programs as fact are not inline with my experience, or the 1000s of people who use them regularly in a professional capacity.

And I prefer ReadDraw Pro (not considered a "Pro" app) to Inkscape, and I use Paint Shop Pro instead of Photoshop. It's not like I'm an Adobe shill or something. I cited SPECIFIC problems with Inkscape/GIMP, though, including faulty EPS import. The other point mentioned was that clients might ask for the PSD files or other proprietary storage formats. I think I was the one pointing out faults with the GIMP and Inkscape, but you're not addressing any of the issues or yes, the facts, that I mentioned. The final point was that the GIMP's creators don't care about making the user interface accessible to its users... user-made macros still provide the best access to the power of the program's engine, and that's not good UI. I never said the GIMP is teh suxorz or that Inkscape is UzeLess, or that you couldn't get "pro quality" results. So, pretty much the above point is a straw man.

2) linux usability / viability for audio - Both Ubuntu Studio and Jacklab are nearly as stable as windows, and (in my experience) more stable that McOperating System. I am typing from ubuntu studio right now, and i have to say, this has not crashed on me even once. It's almost as kill-proof as windows (i honestly can't remember the last time my windows system went down) and i am very impressed with it. Everything i have used on this has been rock solid. Jack, combined with the built in (no compiling needed) low-latency kernel makes this an excellent and perfectly viable pro-audio system. And as someone mentioned, Receptor is Linux too, so the idea that linux can't be taken seriously for audio is a little bit short-sighted.

None of the points made against it were about stability, though, so the entire argument centering around stability is another "straw man." Really, you WOULD have to be arsed reading the rest of the thread if you want to comment appropriately on the rest of the conversation. You can't stumble across one or two quotes and assume that they encapsulate the thread. With the audio gear I own, I simply CANNOT record with Ubuntu studio, and if you could, which app would you use? None of them combine a robust feature-set of both MIDI and AUDIO, along with seamless access to low-latency hardware drivers. You're absolutely right that it's short-sighted. In fact, it's so short-sighted that it's "immediate-sighted". The entire point is that you can't CURRENTLY expect a seamless Linux-based audio environment. Nothing to do with whether or not it'll be a possibility next week or next year. Another point you missed by not being arsed to read the thread is that Receptor is commercially-driven, unlike much of the Open-Source warm fuzziness being bandied around. And that makes a difference. If a Linux audio app had commercial viability (I'm thinking, eXT2) then it might develop a robust feature-set. If Linux drivers would move more units, hardware manufacturers would be better about writing drivers.

Point being: you (the royal "you"-- you, Z3R0, weren't truly speaking to this issue yet (although you mentioned Receptor) so I'm not rolling you into "you". ) can't use Linux's grassroots approach and non-evil non-commercial agenda as a reason to make the switch to Linux from MicroSoft (or Apple) while at the same time failing to recognize that only commercial ventures have any real hope of establishing Linux as a viable platform for audio. Trust me, if Ardour's creators were offered real money to get MIDI up and running, and if manufacturers had reliable statistics showing commercial viability for Linux drivers, we'd already be way ahead of the game and we wouldn't be having this conversation because Linux would already BE there.

Greg

[DuX]

Lunch Money: "Your screenshot above falls into the "gross" category."

Thanks! We all have different tastes. "What to one man is shit is another man's treasure."
Old LCD screens were always my "thing", can't help it. But it doesn't hamper my workflow like the new "Start" menu in Vista [and XP, too].

As for the Vista stuff for musicians, I can think of only two things: better support for quad core processors and some kind of MS response to ASIO - new driver model.

You can teke a look here: http://www.thewhippinpost.co.uk/news/vi ... icians.htm

But I seriously doubt the subjectivity of that review as they say in the beginning, quote: "Yes! Windows Vista has (finally) been completely rewritten from the ground up!"

It's a total pack of lies. Lies, lies, lies. Somebody's enjoying his bribe-money.

Did I say lies? I couldn't stand reading it at all, after seeing such a blatant lie.

If you read between the lines, what it essentially says is that MS is making it's own driver model similar to ASIO and that ASIO is no longer needed, so they're making their own audio driver "standard" and we all know what MS means as "standard" - it will never be a standard, only on Windows, and how they write about MIDI as something insignificant is simply appalling. If we need something - we need rock solid MIDI timing, and we can't have that without using MIDI interfaces from Steinberg or MOTU which have rock solid MIDI which only works with their software sequencers, of course.

Quote: "Related to per-application control: System event sounds - We're talking about the sounds that are thrown-out when email arrives, mouse-clicks, IM "dings" etc... at full volume, bang-slap in the middle of your best recording-take!"

[sarcasm] That's what I always wanted! Oh my god, dream comes true, fabulous! [/sarcasm]

Quote: "Oh yeah... Sound Recorder in Vista can record for longer than one minute! RARRR!"

[sarcasm] That too! How could I live without it? [/sarcasm]

And looking at this, well, the worst onboard chips have better sopecs than that: http://www.thewhippinpost.co.uk/news/vi ... -specs.htm

Catastrophe, it's even worse than I thought.

[bullshark]

If you read between the lines, what it essentially says is that MS is making it's own driver model similar to ASIO and that ASIO is no longer needed

How is it called? I did try every drivers available, but none gave me anything usable as far as latency is concerned, I had to resort to installing Asio4All to get anything remotely usable.

Frankly, I think most of the audio "improvement" have more to do with system sound than anything else, and since turning those off is the first thing any self-respecting musician does, no way to notice them.

[DuX]

I can't remember what this MS standard "ASIO" is called... we talked about it some time ago. hmmm I'll try to find it.

What audio card are you using?

[bullshark]

The Realtek thing that came with the laptop for now.

I had an appointment with my dealer to setup and test the laptop with a few Firewire audio interface later this week, but at this point in time I think I might just send the laptop back to where it cam from and cancel that appointment.

[DuX]

Heh, I found it, we discussed Vista some 5 months ago here: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... c&start=30

It's called Wave RT driver. If you have any clue about the inner workings of an OS this is the same thing as ASIO, but it's MS's. I don't know, RME drivers are quite mature, very fast, optimised and stable, I wouldn't want to change them for anything else.

With Realtek audio card, the best driver you can use for audio is ASIO4All. It's a pity, though, you don't get a real ASIO driver from Realtek, but many people are working with ASIO4All and loving it . If you're using Reaper, you can try with WDM kernel streaming driver, but it's not as good [latency wise] as ASIO.

[Z3R0T0N1N]

ps: i've never used the non-commercial, non-"evil" nature of Linux as a reason to make the switch or to tell anyone else to, so i'm glad you didn't roll me into the "you"

I also tried to be clear that it was my own experience and preference, although i didn't do that well - my "short-sighted" comment is a good example and i retract that, sorry.


PHP and mySQL are opensource. Apache is opensource. Adobe just made the flex2 platform opensource (!!). the GPX2 portable game system is doing fairly well, and it's linux based.

It can succeed, and succeed VERY well.

I have to believe that there is something beyond the totally unsustainable corporate model of economics, something better. I can't accept that just because we haven't been there before, we won't get there. If i did, i would give up.

It's not as simple as corporate rule vs. platonic state. There has to be something better, and the ideals behind the FSF and creative commons, and L/GPL are truly beneficial. I believe it will work. I hope it will. But i do use some corporate software as well. I prefer a compromise though - small companies, and private companies, who are free to do the right thing without being in violation of the law to do so. I believe in a kind of electronic / WWW version of the 'think globally, act locally' credo

[bullshark]

Heh, I found it, we discussed Vista some 5 months ago here: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... c&start=30

It's called Wave RT driver. If you have any clue about the inner workings of an OS this is the same thing as ASIO, but it's MS's. I don't know, RME drivers are quite mature, very fast, optimised and stable, I wouldn't want to change them for anything else.

With Realtek audio card, the best driver you can use for audio is ASIO4All. It's a pity, though, you don't get a real ASIO driver from Realtek, but many people are working with ASIO4All and loving it . If you're using Reaper, you can try with WDM kernel streaming driver, but it's not as good [latency wise] as ASIO.

Thank's. I bought the laptop yesterday, specifically for multichannel audio recording, so the Realtek thing I use was only temporary until I chose an audio interface that meets my needs.

That said, I haven't spent much time with Vista, but did enough dicking around to become aware of some of it's numerous pitfall as an audio recording OS. For instance, almost all task that can be scheduled are turned on with the default install, and they're spread out all over the place; just imagine for a minute: you're in the middle of a critical live recording when suddenly the disc defragmenting utility decide that now is the best time for defragmenting you audio drive


There's ton of those things all around the OS, so audio people BEWARE!

[DuX]

Go to task scheduler an' tell'em to go d'hell , or you can always stop the task scheduler service in administrative tools>services, same thing. However, it's not the only problem.

@Z3R0T0N1N: I really like your thinking, man [in general, too, I've seen many of your posts], but Vista is not ready for musicians yet.

God kill me if I'm wrong.



BOOOOM!



just trying to loosen up the atmosphere a bit.

Cheers!

[Z3R0T0N1N]

no, i think you are probably right. i like the idea of some of the stuff they did, but i'm wary in general.
It was good to hear that xp would be supported 'till 2014.

hey, here's my screenshot, in case anyone thinks windows is not beautiful
stripped down (ish) xp, styles disabled and a custom startup...


bbClean installed as default, but i can't remember what bbstyle this is
this uses next to nothing in resources - less than styles - and has multiple desktops. the whole system is available anywhere with a right-click. I can't even use a normal system anymore without getting frustrated [/img] So even if it did use a bit of resources, it would be more than worth it for the ease of use and efficiency.

[DuX]

Oh yes, bbClean is very cool. I almost installed it myself. I'd maybe use it, too if I trusted it as much as I trust LiteStep and I trust Litestep because I've been using it for 7-8 years now and I never turn-off my comps and I restart the system only when I'm forced to. I too, don't see "usual" windows shell much - only on my clients computers. My record uptime is still only 21days on Win2000, because I update programs regularly and some of them ask to restart the system. My music system [XP now, 9 months old] is actually so stable that I can't believe it's MS XP . Remember the good ole W98? You had to restart it at least once a day to get the "resources" back . That said, XP and W2K are a nice step forward whatever I say against Windows.

Beautiful theme btw. I like those colours and the wallpaper, easy on eyes.

Cheers!

[Sascha Franck]

It's called Wave RT driver. If you have any clue about the inner workings of an OS this is the same thing as ASIO, but it's MS's. I don't know, RME drivers are quite mature, very fast, optimised and stable, I wouldn't want to change them for anything else.

Seems to be just exactly the same issue as with Apples Core Audio. Which, having done quite some tests myself, plus initiating a rather huge discussion about smallest available latencies on the LUG (Logic Users Group), is still quite inferior compared to properly ASIO driven cards. In a nutshell, the results of all these tests (done by myself and quite some others) have been that the lowest possible latencies are still achieved using Windows and some "quality" ASIO drivers. Yeah well, there's Apogee and their Symphony system, but on the Core Audio side of things, it seems to be the *only* exception. Besides, compared to the 1.6ms of overall latency (read: in a total system I/O audio roundtrip test) they're claiming (which really is just working fine on the latest MacPros), my rather mediocre Indigo I/O used in my (even more) mediocre Samsung R50 (1.86GHz Pentium M), offering 2.2ms at the same settings, is still making up for a rather tough competition. And from what I remember, RMEs latest drivers for their PCI cards are offering an even lower latency.
As much as I may hate Steinberg as a company, thumbs up for their ASIO driver model - it's still the best for us musicians. So, f**k both MS and Apple for even trying to bother with their all-so-shiny new "native" standards. They seem to have no clue at all.