OK let me start by saying I've never used a real TB303 and so this is NOT another thread about how realistic the various emulations are or arent. I wouldn't have a clue.
However, I confess I do rather like the sound of Rebirth - and there are some Rebirth RBS songs that I'd like to attempt to recreate within Cubase using VSTi's. Tau2 (obviously) seems a promising candidate for helping out with this task.
But the thing that kinda surprised when I compared Rebirth vs the Tau2 demo last night is that I can switch OFF all the distortion and filtering and delay and compression on the Rebirth synth and yet it still sounds to me much grittier/growlier/more distorted than Tau2 does at similar settings. Tau seems rather ... smooth. The closest I could get to matching the Rebirth tones I was after was by whacking the accent on Tau2 way up. [I know this is all subjective... and if necessary I suppose I could post A/B mp3 files .... but let's not go there if we dont have to].
Maybe I was wrong to have expected them to sound similar, but I had anticipated they were both reasonably close to the "real thing". [Aaaaarrrggghhh...I said I wasn't going to mention that.]
I guess my question is whether Rebirth is somehow configured to be "more acid" that Tau2 at its default settings, and whether anyone has advice on whether or not I'd be able to tickle Tau2 to get it close to producing the Rebirth-tones I'm hunting for?
Tau2 vs Rebirth
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Muon Software Ltd Muon Software Ltd https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=89
- KVRian
- 1461 posts since 21 Nov, 2000
This has already come up in one thread or another around here so don't be shy to ask 
Here's our view on the situation: the emulation in Rebirth is not all that close to a real 303. In fact, compared to Tau2, it's night and day.
For example (using the same riff and parameters in each test):
http://www.muon-software.com/temp/303.mp3
and then...
http://www.muon-software.com/temp/tau2.mp3
The only difference really between the 303 and tau2 is that the 303 is slightly out of tune (they are *very* difficult to keep in tune!!).
If you listen hard, you'll also find that overall the dynamic of the Tau2 riff is slightly compressed compared to the 303 and appears to be slightly louder. Everything else is pretty much spot on.
Now:
http://www.muon-software.com/temp/rebirth.mp3
This doesn't sound very close to the original 303 at all to my ears.
We've recorded this particular riff on something like 64 different control settings on the 303, Tau2 and on Rebirth. If there was time I'd be happy to post them all
Hope this helps
Dave
Here's our view on the situation: the emulation in Rebirth is not all that close to a real 303. In fact, compared to Tau2, it's night and day.
For example (using the same riff and parameters in each test):
http://www.muon-software.com/temp/303.mp3
and then...
http://www.muon-software.com/temp/tau2.mp3
The only difference really between the 303 and tau2 is that the 303 is slightly out of tune (they are *very* difficult to keep in tune!!).
If you listen hard, you'll also find that overall the dynamic of the Tau2 riff is slightly compressed compared to the 303 and appears to be slightly louder. Everything else is pretty much spot on.
Now:
http://www.muon-software.com/temp/rebirth.mp3
This doesn't sound very close to the original 303 at all to my ears.
We've recorded this particular riff on something like 64 different control settings on the 303, Tau2 and on Rebirth. If there was time I'd be happy to post them all
Hope this helps
Dave
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- The Teach
- 8273 posts since 23 Jul, 2002 from flatness
equally -
neither rebirth or a 303 sound like a real tau2
slainte
rob
neither rebirth or a 303 sound like a real tau2
slainte
rob-
- KVRAF
- 3404 posts since 15 Sep, 2002
Those three mp3s all sound equally different from each other to me. I can't hear that the Tau2 is closer to the 303 than Rebirth is.
However, I think in a mix, any of the three could play the part.
I've been thinking about waiting for the dust to settle on 303 VSTis, but I think I'll go ahead and order Tau2. It really seems like a nice piece of work. I'm glad you put the effort in.
Rebirth is great, but I want a real VSTi.
However, I think in a mix, any of the three could play the part.
I've been thinking about waiting for the dust to settle on 303 VSTis, but I think I'll go ahead and order Tau2. It really seems like a nice piece of work. I'm glad you put the effort in.
Rebirth is great, but I want a real VSTi.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 13 posts since 4 Jan, 2001 from Knoxville, TN
Thanks for the reply MSL. I guess I'm encouraged to the extent that the tau.mp3 and rebirth.mp3 were certainly close enough for my needs.
Unfortunately it seems my real problem is that I ain't got the skills to sequence Tau2 well enough to get the rebirth-sounds I'm looking for.
Here's an example of a Rebirth riff I'd like to emulate (square wave with accent, some cut-off tweaking etc):
http://home.att.net/~ghickling/mp3/rebirth2.mp3
If anyone knows how to get reasonably close to that and felt like posting a little advice on the Tau2 settings that got them there, then that really would be fan-dam-fastic!
Unfortunately it seems my real problem is that I ain't got the skills to sequence Tau2 well enough to get the rebirth-sounds I'm looking for.
Here's an example of a Rebirth riff I'd like to emulate (square wave with accent, some cut-off tweaking etc):
http://home.att.net/~ghickling/mp3/rebirth2.mp3
If anyone knows how to get reasonably close to that and felt like posting a little advice on the Tau2 settings that got them there, then that really would be fan-dam-fastic!
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- KVRAF
- 4644 posts since 28 Nov, 2002 from Chicago
So far I've found that rolling a little bit of the bass off of the Tau2 gives a slighty more acidic feel. A tiny bit of distortion (m-drive) will add some of the required dirt[1]. If you want a Rebirth sound then a little hard limiting might be worth a try. To my ears a lot of Rebirth tracks have some high end dirt that always sounds a lot like digital clipping.
FWIW, on the 303 level, I'd be surprised if two genuine TB 303's sounded all that identical if A-B'd.
[1] This is not a 303 thing, but most acid stuff now seems to rely on a distorted sound. Listen to Phuture or some such and you'll notice that his 303 lines are quite smooth sounding.
FWIW, on the 303 level, I'd be surprised if two genuine TB 303's sounded all that identical if A-B'd.
[1] This is not a 303 thing, but most acid stuff now seems to rely on a distorted sound. Listen to Phuture or some such and you'll notice that his 303 lines are quite smooth sounding.
Someone shot the food. Remember: don't shoot food!
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Muon Software Ltd Muon Software Ltd https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=89
- KVRian
- 1461 posts since 21 Nov, 2000
Couldn't have said it better myselfneither rebirth or a 303 sound like a real tau2
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- KVRAF
- 3038 posts since 12 Mar, 2002 from Central NY
I agree Tau2 has it's own thing going on....and I LIKE IT!!:D I also quite
like ReBirth....if the Props were paying attention they might suss out
the fact that they'd be able to sell this venerable geezer all over again
by making a VSTi out of it!!
Cheers.....CL
like ReBirth....if the Props were paying attention they might suss out
the fact that they'd be able to sell this venerable geezer all over again
by making a VSTi out of it!!
Cheers.....CL
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- KVRer
- 1 posts since 14 Jun, 2003
listenin to those mp3s...
why does the tau2 have all that bass that the 303 doesn't have?....on my speakers the difference is evident...and the freq analyzer confirms it too! maybe u r using some of them pro-awful speakers(like yamaha ns-10) that completely hide the bass....
not that I don't like more bass on 303 but if u're tryin to create a clone then its worth sorting...
why does the tau2 have all that bass that the 303 doesn't have?....on my speakers the difference is evident...and the freq analyzer confirms it too! maybe u r using some of them pro-awful speakers(like yamaha ns-10) that completely hide the bass....
not that I don't like more bass on 303 but if u're tryin to create a clone then its worth sorting...
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Muon Software Ltd Muon Software Ltd https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=89
- KVRian
- 1461 posts since 21 Nov, 2000
The original 303 has a DC blocker circuit that really thins the bass out, especially on the square wave. We've modelled this, but moved the cutoff down a bit so that it still acts as a DC blocker, but doesn't affect the sound. If you buy something like a DevilFish mod for the 303 it will correct this problem also on the original.
There's nothing that says you can't use a bit of EQ on Tau2 though...
Regards
Dave
BTW - We've got rather nice Mordant-Short monitors and Audio Technica headphones here, both have excellent bass extension.
There's nothing that says you can't use a bit of EQ on Tau2 though...
Regards
Dave
BTW - We've got rather nice Mordant-Short monitors and Audio Technica headphones here, both have excellent bass extension.
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- KVRAF
- 3404 posts since 15 Sep, 2002
>>We've modelled this, but moved the cutoff down a bit so that it still acts as a DC blocker, but doesn't affect the sound.
I'm not against you improving bugs and design flaws that are in the 303, but maybe future versions of Tau2 could have a "compatibility" switch that makes Tau2 closer to the 303.
Seems like half the complaints come from people who are trying to recreate a particular sound or sweep instead of just making a new sound. Nothing wrong with that, by the way. That's how people learn.
Right now I'm using Tau2 in tracker programs, by the way. A tracker is a great way to sequence a modern classic like the Tau2.
I'm not against you improving bugs and design flaws that are in the 303, but maybe future versions of Tau2 could have a "compatibility" switch that makes Tau2 closer to the 303.
Seems like half the complaints come from people who are trying to recreate a particular sound or sweep instead of just making a new sound. Nothing wrong with that, by the way. That's how people learn.
Right now I'm using Tau2 in tracker programs, by the way. A tracker is a great way to sequence a modern classic like the Tau2.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 13 posts since 4 Jan, 2001 from Knoxville, TN
>>>Seems like half the complaints come from people who are trying to recreate a particular sound or sweep .... nothing wrong with that, by the way. That's how people learn.
Exactly. My original post was NOT intended as a complaint. I'm fairly confident Tau2 could get suitably close to the sounds I'm after ... if I can just get the hang of extracting them. For me the rebirth sound is just a reference point so I dont lose focus on one of the places I want to be able get to as I learn.
Exactly. My original post was NOT intended as a complaint. I'm fairly confident Tau2 could get suitably close to the sounds I'm after ... if I can just get the hang of extracting them. For me the rebirth sound is just a reference point so I dont lose focus on one of the places I want to be able get to as I learn.
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Muon Software Ltd Muon Software Ltd https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=89
- KVRian
- 1461 posts since 21 Nov, 2000
If you simply set up the same knob positions on Tau2 as on Rebirth you'll get pretty much the same sound. However, as the MP3s show Rebirth sounds more "loose" or "floppy" (for want of better adjectives) and doesn't really sound much like the original 303.
Three other good tips for you:
* Make sure you set your velocities carefully in your MIDI riff so as you're not triggering the accent feature when you don't want it either.
* Make sure that you cut all notes 1/32nd of a beat short of their "proper" length. The 303 sequencer has this odd quirk and you won't get the full-on authentic stacatto sound without doing this. Having said that, the 303 sequencer allows you to tie adjacent notes, which Rebirth doesn't (nor Creakbox or Lush for that matter). Tied notes don't slide, but slur into each other in a legato fashion. You can simulate this easily enough in a MIDI sequencer just by leaving the note normal length.
* Rebirth has a 16-bit output, your favourite riff could be clipping. To simulate this, stick an M-Drive on the channel and set the clipshape fully left. Then decrease the threshold till it sounds right. Interestingly enough, the original 303 will start to clip when the volume knob is at more than 75%. You can simulate this effect with M-Drive too - just remember, the threshold control determines at what volume the clipping should begin, and the clipshape determines the type of clipping used (left=digital, right=analogue).
Hope this helps
Dave
Three other good tips for you:
* Make sure you set your velocities carefully in your MIDI riff so as you're not triggering the accent feature when you don't want it either.
* Make sure that you cut all notes 1/32nd of a beat short of their "proper" length. The 303 sequencer has this odd quirk and you won't get the full-on authentic stacatto sound without doing this. Having said that, the 303 sequencer allows you to tie adjacent notes, which Rebirth doesn't (nor Creakbox or Lush for that matter). Tied notes don't slide, but slur into each other in a legato fashion. You can simulate this easily enough in a MIDI sequencer just by leaving the note normal length.
* Rebirth has a 16-bit output, your favourite riff could be clipping. To simulate this, stick an M-Drive on the channel and set the clipshape fully left. Then decrease the threshold till it sounds right. Interestingly enough, the original 303 will start to clip when the volume knob is at more than 75%. You can simulate this effect with M-Drive too - just remember, the threshold control determines at what volume the clipping should begin, and the clipshape determines the type of clipping used (left=digital, right=analogue).
Hope this helps
Dave