Reaper is not an ugly duckling anymore !

[shogger]

I don't get it.

OK, sorry. That obviously wasn't clear then. I had some bad experiences with Word in the past. Was working on a manual for 3 months and needed 3 weeks of that time to repair what Word destroyed in between. That just made me laugh to read (I paraphraze): "Hey, it's all new. Now it works! But if you got something else that works why bother?"
This I meant was the joke of the day for me. So nothing personal, only MS Office.

Shogger

[Since1980]

Ok, after seeing Younsoft's theme, I've been using Reaper alot more. I've got over the learning curve and I really like. So much so, I want to buy it and replace Logic Pro. But and this is a big but, Midi/Vsti timing is horrible in Reaper. Until Reaper get's that fixed, I'm sticking with Logic.

Reaper is still a "future" product for me.

[brok landers]

it's not only the timing, it's that the whole midi implementation is far from complete .. sadly ...

[alex zonder]

it's not only the timing, it's that the whole midi implementation is far from complete .. sadly ...

Please elaborate. What MIDI features not implemented in REAPER 1.880 would you need for what purposes?

[brok landers]

@alex zonder:
at first i'd like to say that it could of course be, that i've missed some of these features in reaper, which are there already, but it's a not so good indication if one has to dig deep for basic operations, still not finding them ...
here we go:
- global track delay for each track in ms/ticks/samples switchable (this should be there for _all_ events/track, somwhere accessable in the arrange window)
- possibility to drag the lenght of all midinotes in the pianoroll relative or absolute to the snap position
- remapping of controller events in the pianoroll controllerlane/event editor
- possibility to simultanesly having open pianoroll and event list editor
- there's no dragable editability of the event list editor
- no multilane controller editing in the pianoroll ...
- there's no detailled editable event information (like only one "row" of the event editor), once one clicks on a note in the pianoroll ...

i could go on, but i forgot the rest ...
don't get me wrong:
i like reaper. some of it's features are really strong ...
i just don't understand, why a developer just wants to break through his own thing, not respecting the fact that there are several things in sequencers already prooven to be best to work with ...
would be way easier for one to switch to reaper if the necessary basics would be at least there, or accessable in a intuitive, if not that, then at least in a logical manner ...
things like, i.e. the left mouseclick is painting a new note, when clicking and dragging, in all other apps this behaviour selects with a rubberband ... not that it's bad, but there's no indication for that ... in most other apps, at least the mouse is changing it's look when a certain function is used in an unusual manner ... this mousebehave in particular is nothing i couldn't live with, but it indicates what i'd like to point out ...
why do the same basics have to be different over and over again between sequencers?
why not creating a sequencer, leaving the usual basics the way one is used to, then add features that make the sequencer unique?
this would keep the learnig curve lowest possible, and makes it easier to switch to reaper from other hosts ...
i mean, i switched from cubase vst 4.0 these days to logic 3.5 ...
the basics we're quite similar in logic, that kept the learning curve low (i switched within a week), still logic provided several new/better things those days ...
nowadays all apps are completely different ...
you have to spend weeks with the new app, just to find out that it's not there yet, or just nothing for you ...
hmmm ...
i really would finally ditch logic, but it seems there's no way up to now ...

oh how i will again get beaten for this, i bet ...

[Coxy]

Wow, I have recently sold my SX3 for SL3 as there were alot of features I just wasn't using, so I'm not hostless and hopefully picking up a uesd copy of SL3 very soon. In the mean time to try and get some free patches for synth1 done for my site I thought I'd try Reaper, actually very impressive. Alot of workflow similar to Cubase which maybe not refreshing it was certainly good to see a friendly face

I found it pretty initiative and with the online wiki any problems I came across were answered in there. I'm not ready to down(some would say up)grade away from Cubase but Reaper shall certainly be on the list should I ever think about being unfaithful

[shogger]

i really would finally ditch logic, but it seems there's no way up to now ...

oh how i will again get beaten for this, i bet ...

I don't think so. It just shows where your priorities are and that's a good thing. I think that the midi part of Reaper is it's weakest area. While there are so many other cool features in there, the big ones and so many cool workflow decisions, that it helps me to get over the weak midi part. Well, I hope that midi will get some more attention soon.
I'm constantly sliding over to Reaper. These days I rarely opened Nuendo to make music. Mostly to verify things against Reaper.

Shogger

[shogger]

And on topic:

The old and young theme is by far the best until now. Lots of things made right and it looks mostly nice.

Shogger

[alex zonder]

brok, thanks for elaborating. I asked 'what would you need for what purposes' because I had just gone through the (long) MIDI request thread over at the Cockos forum. Now and then I see people request features that make me wonder if they actually NEED it for music production or simply WANT it because it happens to be out there in some other app, and looks like GREAT or FUN to have.

I do think REAPER provides the basic functions of a good MIDI editor, enough for everthing I do in MIDI for instance, but sure it's still in the making. Developing, I'd think, at a rather high speed as anything REAPER. For example several features on your list are about event (list) editing. Well, the event list editor has only recently been implemented, so now we'll have to wait a bit for the refinements and ameliorations. Any specific request and valuable suggestion with regard to event editing will interest REAPER's dev Justin, I can assure you.

Some features on your list are chinese to me... such as "global track delay for each track in ms/ticks/samples switchable"... I'm too dumb for that (or might be a language problem) so I'll never need it I guess. Others such as 'possibility to drag the lenght of all midinotes in the pianoroll relative or absolute to the snap position' are afaik implemented.

Problem is you did not really respond to what I hoped to learn: 'for what purposes'? As I said feature requests are a highly popular genre in audio forums, and sometimes they remind of art for art's sake... Your list seems to differ from that... But I hope you see what I'm getting at. A feature you miss: "there's no dragable editability of the event list editor". Is that what you'd call a basic MIDI function? But apart from that question, what interests me: what does that feature allow to you do that REAPER currently doesn't? Or is it mostly about the workflow you're used to in another app?

With regard to Justin' sometimes unconventional solutions: well, isn't that exactly why we have a 2+ MB download piece of stellar audio software with a fresh approach that's bewildering'not everyone yet but many already?

Anyway, I think a lot of REAPER users expect some outbursts of MIDI love in the nearing of v.2, so with some luck most of what you need will be available pretty soon.

[Since1980]

alex, I see your point. That's why for me, sample accurate timing is the one thing that is holding me back from ditching Logic Pro. Yeah other features will be great, but for now, timing is important to me. You know, maybe I have other gripes about midi in Reaper if I used it more, who knows...

But Justin is doing a great job, and can't wait till future releases

[billybk1]

alex, I see your point. That's why for me, sample accurate timing is the one thing that is holding me back from ditching Logic Pro. Yeah other features will be great, but for now, timing is important to me. You know, maybe I have other gripes about midi in Reaper if I used it more, who knows...

AFAIK, REAPER is actually better than that now, down to sub-sample accurate. This is a quote from Justin recently regarding this issue:

In fact, last we tested, it was sub-sample accurate, meaning you could set a loop that was 153715.5 samples long, and it would alternate between looping 153715 and 15716 samples each time through, as to not drift over time.

Justin

[brok landers]

Now and then I see people request features that make me wonder if they actually NEED it for music production or simply WANT it because it happens to be out there in some other app, and looks like GREAT or FUN to have.

yes, i understand this 100%.
this is actually the reason why it's so hard to develop a good music app.
to spell the necessary from the unnecessary is very hard, i believe, for exact the fact you mention here ...
however, trust me, i need it, i wouldn't ask for it if it wasn't so ...
and, lemme say it like this:
my last wish is to be seen as a pretender, but i'm pretty knowledged about working with sequencers ...
and, despite the fact that there's always a bit of taste involved when it comes to workflow, i must say, that over the time working with sequencers, pretty much a certain workflow established itself, accepted to be good, and this (i made the experience) is mostly more or less the same if only the layout-possibilities are there for the user ...
i was doing studio-support for a lot of studios for quite a while, i was booked for that. they we'r e mostly working with cubase, nuendo or logic, in conjunction with protools hardware ...
they all we're kinda happy with the way they worked with their sequencers, until i showed them (out of their own interrest) how you _can_ work with logic.
from that time on, they never wanted to work any different ...
they mostly took it over within a week or so ...
again, my intension is not to pretend, all i want to show is, that there is a general workflow, that has been prooven to be the best, as it is based on all workflows all others work with their sequencers ... it's just taking a bit from this idea, a bit from that idea, pretty much compiling the _goods_ of certain philosophies into one, easy, yet most flexible workflow with max overview no matter what ...
i can't understand why this isn't done ...

> snip< Any specific request and valuable suggestion with regard to event editing will interest REAPER's dev Justin, I can assure you.

oh, i'm sure of that, justin's nice, that's the reason why i still don't give up ...

Some features on your list are chinese to me... such as "global track delay for each track in ms/ticks/samples switchable"... I'm too dumb for that

you're not ...
it's easy:
if you do music which really depends on timing, this feature is worth gold.
i'll explain it ...
let's do it the most easy way:
we record a bassdrum with a plugin-sampler on a miditrack, 4 beats, 1 bar.
now, we record sampler-hi hats, 8 beats, 1 bar.
what we have now, is the fact, that hi hat note 1, 3, 5 and 7 are at the exact same position as the bassdrum is. they play together at the same time.
now the important thing:
sometimes you find, that these two signals don't work very well together, while beeing just what you want, when hearing them each isolated (thats why you actually choosed those).
while it could be that they're really not fit together, mostly the _timing_ is the reason.
now, when moving the hihat a tiny bit _before_ the note position of the bassdrum, this can really drastically improove the overall sound of the two sounds, when playing them together. they miracally fit together, just because you slightly moved the _whole track_ of the hihat just a tiny bit ...
i can't tell you the exact ammount of the "move", as it differs depending on the signal, but it's mostly just a tiny bit, ranging from around (guessed) 100 samples to , say, max 4 msec's (that's why i said "switchable", so you can use msecs, ticks or samples) ...
the most important thing is, that this audio-principle actually applies to _all_ signals in a mix!
i.e. the same works with bassdrum and snare ... the snare doesn't fit when played together with the bassdrum, just move it a bit, try around, while listen to the looped bar ... you'll mostly find a position, where it fits perfectly with the bassdrum, without the need to correct with any eq's, etc ... not that mixing is not necessary, it still is, but the basic sound is already what you expected ...
while one could do this with a plugin (there are several sample delays out there), i find it easier to be able to do that somewhere directly in the trackview ... it's an essential for me ...
my english lacks when it comes to such deep issues ...

Others such as 'possibility to drag the lenght of all midinotes in the pianoroll relative or absolute to the snap position' are afaik implemented.

nice one, also a very necessary thing ...

Problem is you did not really respond to what I hoped to learn: 'for what purposes'?

well, i could do that, but that would really take too long, as i'd had to explain everything in detail ...
1. my english isn't good enough i'm afraid
2. i'd have to buildt into my explanation _every_ possible aspect to make you actually understand that this is best the way i want it ...
otherwise you'd say "but you can do it thais or that way", then i'd have to reply with "no, because blah and blah ... ", and this would go a while until i made you understand why i need certain things ...
the problem is:
mostly everything is there!
it's just the way it is accessable drives me nuts ...
some features are 10 mouseclicks away, while they could've been implemented so that there's just one mouseclick ...
i'll give you another example:
logic has screensets, which you can recall with just a stroke on one key on your computerkeyboard.
while reaper has that too, in logic it makes the feature actually really usable near to perfecness because of one reason:
all the editors (in fact, all windows) are content linkable.
this means, you actually can leave the editors all open, building a screenset for a given task, i.e. midi editing.
i have two monitors. it's a breeze to lay out the workflow taskbased, i have the arrangement window to the left monitor, the pianoroll editor to the right monitor, but lefthanded on the right monitor, the event list to the right monitor, right handed, next to the pianoroll, but not full vertical space ...
right under the event list editor i have some transform windows, which perform
stuff i need mostly on a lot of events, such as full velo on all notes, creshendo or decreshendo on selected events (selected in the pianoroll editor), quantize lenght of all/selected events, etc, etc ...
the cool thing is, that these editors, as they are contentlinked, show the ingrediances of whatever you select in the arrange window!
there's no need to poen and close any editor ever again!
you can't be faster.
it's just one keystroke and you're ready to edit, seeing _everything_ you ever might need, no need to doubleclick and close all various editors again and again ...
you could also do this type of working with _all_other tasks, such as mixing, audio editing ... etc, etc ...
whenever, wherever, it's just _one_ keystroke and you're ready to edit whatever you want in the fastest possible manner, while providing maximum overview of all you do ...
i simply cannot understand why this is not implemented into _every_ f**** sequencer ...
nobody's forced to work a certain way then anymore, as everybody has the possibility to create his own, personal workspace to the deepest state ...
that's what i call freedom ...
if you don't understand what i mean (my english), i could post some screenshots for examination and reverse engineering ...

As I said feature requests are a highly popular genre in audio forums, and sometimes they remind of art for art's sake...

i really know what you mean ...

Your list seems to differ from that...

i strongly hope so!

>snip< A feature you miss: "there's no dragable editability of the event list editor". Is that what you'd call a basic MIDI function?

oh hell, yes!
look, some stuff is easier edited in the piano roll, some stuff is easier edited in the event list, i.e. controller remapping ... you just select in logic a controller event you'd like to remap to another controller, doubleclick it with "alt" pressed, and it selects all the events of the same type, say, controller1 ... then all you have to do is move the mouse to the controllernumber (which is shown in the eventlist of course) and drag it up or down to your desired controllernumber and: voila, you just rmapped the controller with 2 (!?) mouseclicks ...
that's just one of many reasons i really love the eventlist editor ...
others are, that the eventlist editor in logic isn't only for midi, but for _all_ events in the arrange (even automation), so if you click on an audio part, it shows you the exact position in numbers, which makes it possible to freely fine-adjust the position, the lenght and various other properties of that audiopart by simply draging the mouse up or down, which is often easier than fiddeling around graphically (which you of course can do too, if you prefer) ...
sometimes numbers give you a more safe indication than graphics ...
already automated a cutoff on the track, but you need higher values, while keeping the exaxt same curve?
select the automation part, select all (ctrl > a) in the eventlist editor, drag to the value you need. done ... 2 clicks, one drag, that's it ...
this again applies to all events, you could also do that with velocity, or any other controller ... pure freedom with minimum required steps ...

But apart from that question, what interests me: what does that feature allow to you do that REAPER currently doesn't? Or is it mostly about the workflow you're used to in another app?

well, both .. i'm used to it, but there is, like i said, no easier/safer way too ... you have all necessary overview and editing possibilities with just one keystroke ...
when you need numbers for detailled editing, they're there, when you need pianostyle editing it's there, too ... in logic this philosophy applies, like i said, fo _all_ events, so you can choose and layout the workflow most possible perfect, recallable, again, with just one keystroke ...

With regard to Justin' sometimes unconventional solutions: well, isn't that exactly why we have a 2+ MB download piece of stellar audio software with a fresh approach that's bewildering'not everyone yet but many already?

well, 2 mb, great, though i wouldn't care if it's 10 mb either, the download speeds these days are so high, i don't really care ... but still, i give you thatone as it means, that justin knows how to code efficiently ...
but "stellar" is a subjective definition ...
i also know a lot of users that actually _don't _ like reaper for it's philosophy ... i mean, i _do_ like reaper to a certain degree, it has some stuff i miss in all other sequencers, too ...

Anyway, I think a lot of REAPER users expect some outbursts of MIDI love in the nearing of v.2, so with some luck most of what you need will be available pretty soon.

i really hope for that ...
maybe justin is interrested in my way of thinking ... let's see ... maybe he reads this ... one should never loose hope, should one?

[MaliceX]

MIDI needs a lot of tweaking. Also, maybe ability for easy slicing/dragging of stuff like in ACID, would probably make me use this program seriously.

I plan to get a laptop soon, and it's not exactly possible to install ACID 6 Pro on another machine if one only has a single license...

[Klemperer]

Monsignore Zonder è Landers, grazie per errm, thanks for posting those ideas to you both! In EnergyXT1.4 I sometimes had the same thoughts Alex mentioned - do I need all those midi-possibilities or do I just don't understand them. = would I work MUCH faster, and would I need to do so, or is it just right how I work.

A thread full of great hints, Brok's post is something to print out. Getting my head around Reaper and Podium, and a lot of information here is useful for exactly that.

Concerning how FAST someone can do this or that - I would be happy enough if I could do what I want in Reaper, and if I'd take 3 minutes for it and wouldn't forget about the song I wish to do it would be just nice, and I wouldn't need saving 60 seconds or so. But I agree that's just me, and many users simply are used to a good workflow. I think Reaper, just like EnergyXT or Podium or Usine or Audiomulch and those hosts sometimes attracted early users because of the great features they had then, and sometimes because you can even *learn* a lot by finding workarounds for features that, like in Reaper, might only be implemented in some weeks. (The updates are so many, and all are so stable, it's unbelievable!)

[brok landers]

A thread full of great hints, Brok's post is something to print out. Getting my head around Reaper and Podium, and a lot of information here is useful for exactly that.

thanks!
i'd just hope that justin actually would just do that ...