VSTis as good as hardware? Similar to Access Virus Quality?

[D-Fusion]

I agree with you on this Urs
Here is a new Example, but it is not ZV2 this time (It is a Choir like sound i just programmed).
So is it hard or Soft?
http://www.box.net/shared/8kk9j7moa2

[pepelogu]

#---

Ultimately the bashing of software will find an end. With few exceptions, analogue hardware can be perfectly reproduced. With no exception, decent software sounds no better nor worse than decent hardware (havn't heard Oasys and Solaris tho).

Just think:

What if the Virus was freed from its dongle? What if company XY bought Access and turned the source code of the Virus into a plugin? Let's say, a download of 3MB.

How much would you want to spend for that? $1000?

How much is the dongle worth and what will be left for the "sound"?

Think about it... the analogy is: Software is considered to sound worse because it's cheaper. Once this paradigm is overcome, hardware dies. Just like tape.

Cheers,

Urs

I think you're forgetting an important element here. Musicians are some of the most conservative people anywhere when it comes to gear. Why do you think Neumann U47 is still one of the most popular microphones? It's what - 70 years old by now?

Sure (shure), there has come newer, more refined models, even by Neumann themselves, but those who can afford it still clings to the old classic stuff.

Same with SSL boards, Neve EQ:s and UA Compressors. And the same is becoming more and more true with synths and if one VA has gotten the same "legendary" status as the Neumanns, Lexicon PCM reverbs, etc. It is the Virus. There is hardly a electronic music album released today that doesn't have the classic Virus sound somewhere. Even Vince Clarke of Erasure fame is hooked, and he knows his synths...

Like so many other I sold all my hardware stuff a couple of years ago and thought I would never look back. But after a while I realized the sound of the hardware stuff was unique and couldn't be replicated. The FM7 didn't quite have the punch of the TX81, the Roland Juno emus didn't even come close... and most of all, nothing sounded as good and gave that "proffessional sound" that the virus did.

Now I have a few hardwares, more than ever in fact and I ain't selling!

Besides, how are you going to impress clients (and youre mates) just showing a boring PC or Mac?

[DevonB]

My personal view is, much hype for expensive toys comes from those who shelled out the money. They bought a softsynth and now they must justify the extra cost of the dongle. In times where great universal control boxes have become cheap, the aspect of the hardware knobs become, uhm, mute. So, the last resort to justify the money spent are sound and stability. Latter hasn't been that good recently, so let's say, it's just the sound.

I find many issues with going only with software -

1) The interfaces for all these 'generic' keyboards (Emu, M-Audio, etc.) are 100% garbage. I still prefer the keybbed in my Yamaha W5 infinitaly mroe than anything that's come out recently. Makes me worry if/when it'll ever die. The CME interface does look interesting though...

2) With advancement in hardware and OS's, software has a much shorter shelflife. That old 1980's Roland gear actually still works. What software are *YOU* still running from 1980? Anything?

3) Software companies like to make things obsolete. With Steinberg coming up with Cubase 4 and VST 3 standard, and only supporting up to VST 2.4, I have plugins that are only 1-2 years old that have no fix, and maybe will never have a fix because they are no longer developed. My hardware simply keeps working no matter what OS I have installed.

4) Hardware tends to crash less - Aside from my old EMu E64 that used to throw errors and crash on a regular basis, all of my synths I've used have never came up with a BSOD and stopped me from writing my tune. That's my personal experience. I do realize hardware DOES die.

5) Ergonomics - Preset browsing is significantly faster and easier with a lot of hardware for ROMplers and synths. Samplers, I will hand it to you, software is the way to go. I do NOT miss the 3 1/2 minute load time for a 64 meg piano into my Emu... and that was the only thing I could load!

6) Portability and Sturdiness - I am a little more confident that a 61 key keyboard will stand up to rough-housing compared to a standard laptop. I'm also a little more confident working with it live without crashing.

7) Sound - I prize quality sound design. The hardware synths have it. It has a lot to do with people who've been in the business for decades designing and milking the hardware for all its worth. If I could find a true replacement in all aspects (quality sound design, ease of preset browsing, built-in feature sets like the arp on the Motif, etc.) for the Fantom, Motif, and Triton (KARMA), they'd be sold on Ebay. There isn't so they'll stay in my rack.

Holds value - Almost every sample library, and some plugins I would buy, I CANNOT resell it. Hardware, I can sell it if I don't like it. Hardware on rare occasions increases in value. I made money selling my Yamaha FS1r. That's not going to happen with software. Now I do prefer software's usually much lower cost.

9) I don't have to know a damn thing about a computer, period, to write music on a keyboard. No viruses, no spyware, no security patches, no upgrades, no stupid copy protections with dongles/challenge/response or serial numbers, no pops and clicks at 50% load because my stupid laptop has a Ricoh chipset on my Core 2 Duo laptop,

10) It just WORKS, and works up the the defined limits of the machine. If it says it does 16 tracks and 96 note poly, it'll do it! Not have to worry about one patch hogging all my resources with 2 notes. What I buy is what I get.


I am with you Urs, software does have its place, but I feel you're missing many advantages of hardware. It all depends on what's important to you. If none of the above points are important, then the answer is obvious that software is the way. Not everyone has the same priority list as you.

Devon

[Shy]

D-Fusion: That's software.

Regarding A/B comparison - you can't do a proper and reliable A/B comparison unless the two synths use identical parameters with the same values that produce a similar sound. Unless that's the case, and it almost never is, the person creating the two samples is the culprit and can intentionally or unintentionally create either sound in a specific way that would fool a listener.
There is no single reliable way to do an actual proper synth comparison, you can only do half assed comparisons, so you can pretty much forget about the A/B comparison idea. You could, however, do a non A/B "comparison" and call it "half assed comparison - guess what's software and what's hardware".

[D-Fusion]

You do actually have some good points there Devon and i agree on that Steinberg is breaking the Vst format more and more
That is why i stay with a host that support newer and older vst formats.

I think it is about time that somone do make a new plugin format to compete with the vst format like AU does on mac.

Jeskola Buzz and Psycle have their own formats.

[D-Fusion]

D-Fusion: That's software.

Regarding A/B comparison - you can't do a proper and reliable A/B comparison unless the two synths use identical parameters with the same values that produce a similar sound. Unless that's the case, and it almost never is, the person creating the two samples is the culprit and can intentionally or unintentionally create either sound in a specific way that would fool a listener.
There is no single reliable way to do an actual proper synth comparison, you can only do half assed comparisons, so you can pretty much forget about the A/B comparison idea. You could, however, do a non A/B "comparison" and call it "half assed comparison - guess what's software and what's hardware".

Yes and the same goes for comparing a NL 2X to NL3 also (Even they are from the same company they just sounds different).

I Prefered the NL 2X's sound over NL 3 since it has more presence and NL 3 does sound to Mellow.

[mao]

Well Shy, I tried an A/B comparison between a Minimonsta and a Moog Voyager. Both were very close listening to only one OSC at a time and simply pressing a key. The BIG difference was when you switch on both 2 or 3 osc togheter or when the instrument was "played" (not a simple key press). That's because all that analog interactions between modules, that simply doesn't happens in software because of the algorithm used. VA are another world. A good soundcard can make a VST sounds really good and I think vst will soon match hw VA. But analogs are still another world.

[Urs]

Hey Devon,

Points taken!

My experiences are a bit different... having a Wavestation with sticky keys (and having lost many my own patches when the battery ran out all out of the sudden), an EPS16 whose floppy drive more or less died, a DP4 that's broken etc.

I also hate the format changes in software (computer technology respectively). That's why all my updates are free, with the exception of Z1->Z2 upgrade (20$) - for a completely rewritten software.

I think that while analogues hardware can be repaired and kept alive over the years, you'll have a big problem getting i.e. a dead Waldorf Wave or Casio VZ-1 reanimated once a board is broken.

Software still has the chance to be ported.

However, back to the point:

There is no single reliable way to do an actual proper synth comparison, you can only do half assed comparisons, so you can pretty much forget about the A/B comparison idea.

If one claims that Thing A sounds so much better than Thing B, a blind test is valid no matter if the reproduction of the sound is 100% possible. I.e. you won't try to recreate certain FM sounds on a Virus, because the Virus simply can't do them. But when it comes to "snappy basses", "phat hyper saw trance leads" etc... these are the sounds that people are talking about ("depth", "punch", "warmth"), and these can easily be reproduced by lots of software synths. An A/B comparison is thus totally valid. And there's not gonna be any excuse on neither side.

Actually, as the Virus is not the most flexible box, it would rather be unfair to have a comparison like "Can the Virus sound like XY". Fortunately it's the other way round, and due to the simplicity of Virus patches a comparison should be easily accomplished.

Bring on a .wav of a Virus patch that can't be reproduced in software!

[Shy]

An A/B comparison is not valid, exactly because of the points I mentioned. What you're suggesting is not an A/B comparison, but a general comparison that has nothing to do with ABX methodology, but with subjective ideas of what good/better sound is. For an A/B comparison to be valid, there need to be objective ways to create a sound that is similar on both (or any number of) synths.

[DevonB]

Hey Devon,

Points taken!

My experiences are a bit different... having a Wavestation with sticky keys (and having lost many my own patches when the battery ran out all out of the sudden), an EPS16 whose floppy drive more or less died, a DP4 that's broken etc.

Ok ok, you got me there. I also had a Wavestation WS with sticky keys... I just never cared because I triggered it with my Yamaha W5 most of the time instead or with a seqeuncer. No problems with dead batteries, but if the SysEx dump didn't work, I sure pulled off that back cover a few times to recover too. My W5 is infamous for a bad floppy drive, but mine STILL works 10 years later. Still, have you not had hardware failure on your PC's as well? All hardware, if used, WILL eventually fail.

Still, I think we walked away with enough points. I still strongly believe hardware AND software have their place for many reasons.

Devon

[Midinovela]

Amen!

[Urs]

An A/B comparison is not valid, exactly because of the points I mentioned. What you're suggesting is not an A/B comparison, but a general comparison that has nothing to do with ABX methodology, but with subjective ideas of what good/better sound is. For an A/B comparison to be valid, there need to be objective ways to create a sound that is similar on both (or any number of) synths.

I simply don't care about the semantics. Then it's not an A/B listening test, but a quiz, whatsoever. You can name it what you want.

I care for statements like that of OffTopic where people suggest that a certain hardware *objectively* has certain properties that in fact are *subjective*. In response to that I offer a way to empirically prove him or myself wrong. If listening tests don't do it, there must be something else to verify the claims made. If you believe that there is no way to prove his/my point wrong or right... then so be it*

Urs


*This is a trap. If you say that OffTopic's claims can not be verified, then you've simply lost it

[Rabid]

For me the worst case scenario is hardware that is tied to software. I have not even attempted to get my Nord Modular Rack to work with Vista. What happens 10 years from now when new products like the Nord Modular G1 or G2, Roland MC-808, Virus TI, etc. have been abandoned manufacturers and they will not communicate with Windows 2015? And then there is the issue of 10 different types of memory cards. I have three pieces that use SM cards and those are no longer available unless you find a used one on Ebay.

[Urs]

Well yes... people love to get faster/better machines as they come... but still it is seen as an advantage of dedicated hardware that this can't be upgraded. It's a bit of a paradox... one should say "The great thing about software is, the hardware that runs it gets cheaper and cheaper, you get a Pentium III with Win98 for 100 bucks"

I still have my G4 and could boot into that if I wanted to use my LM4 and my SpectralFX Mastering Edition. Well. If I wanted to. I could also wire up my Virus. If I wanted to. At least latter has been switched on by wonshu so he could recreate the preset banks in Zebra. Ah no, wait, one can't do that, right... it's not the same... people who use these patches on productions will just vanish in a black cloud of smoke...

[pdxindy]

Could you post a mp3 of the preset so us non Zebra's can here it in action?

OK, done (had to learn a bit about box.net first).
http://www.box.net/shared/anv4fhoned

With all respect: but this isn't in the Virus (TI) league. This lacks depth, breadth, punch. Well, lots of things.

With all respect, if the guy who made the virus preset in question (and lots of others) says he can match it in software (in this case Zebra) I find that quite compelling.

Why don't you post up an example of the Virus preset in question then so everyone can hear how it is in another league

oh, and to state my opinion, I would not trade Zebra straight up for any Virus unless it was just to sell it, buy Zebra again, and pocket the extra cash!