honestly why do people debate the sound quality of a host?

[hibidy]

speaking of "going to 11"

The new manybass vst/au goes to 11! I thought it was a cool touch

[jrodwig]

I remember lengthy discussions on PlanetZ about possible phase problems in Pulsar. Eventually (then) Creamware stated that they had modified their mixers to be phase accurate. I don't think I ever would have noticed on my system but some people apparently really could.

I wonder if some hosts may present audio packets to the hardware differently than others with respect to phase, and if hosts and audio interfaces incorrectly report or process buffer sizes so that many golden ears can tell that something is different?

[jupiter8]

I wonder if some hosts may present audio packets to the hardware differently than others with respect to phase, and if hosts and audio interfaces incorrectly report or process buffer sizes so that many golden ears can tell that something is different?

No. It isn't exactly rocket science.

[jrodwig]

I'm sure have seen a number of bug reports that fix delay compensation problems in plug-ins and audio interfaces, so there must be some room for error. Someone (I think MOTU) claims phase accuracy in DP when used with MOTU interfaces (I'm going from memory here).

[jupiter8]

I'm sure have seen a number of bug reports that fix delay compensation problems in plug-ins and audio interfaces, so there must be some room for error. Someone (I think MOTU) claims phase accuracy in DP when used with MOTU interfaces (I'm going from memory here).

Delay compensation is more of a comfort/workflow feature as you can still manually nudge the tracks in a host that does'nt have it.
So it does'nt affect soundquality per se.It's just nice to have. And yeah,the odd bug creeps in from time to time but the thing is: they're bugs. They're not supposed to be there and hopefully they get fixed immidieatly.

And the communication with the soundcard is so basic there's hardly room for error. You hand over an array (or rather a pointer to that array) to the soundcard driver. Here's the audio,now go play it.

And that phase accuracy claim sounds like marketing BS to me. I remember some old SoundBlaster that had interleaved audio (i think,it was a very long time ago) but nowadays it's a non issue. The mere thought that DP should communicate better with their soundcards than any other host is just ridiculous. Why would you buy their soundcard if they did'nt perform perfect woth any host ? That'll be commercial suicide.

[bleebsen]

I always though those phase issues referred to the phase sync between multiple physical outputs anyway: keeping different DA-Converters in sync, not tracks in the host..

[Danno]

I haven't read EVERY post in this thread so forgive me if I'm just restating something.. but:

I really think the 'ergonomics' of a piece of gear or software affects the operation, and therefore the sound it creates.

...and further, the default settings that we start with (and adjust from there) change the sound.. the 'q' of an eq..etc..etc..

I know the stretching in Ableton imparts a sound, but I also think the layout of the faders and the meter displays have a real affect as well... (even if we shouldn't, I sure most of us let the meters influence our decisions.)

Danno

[syrath]

Personally , Im not one of these people who says X host is better than Y host for sound quality. The simple answer is that I do believe that the sound from one host will be different from another.

However the perception of that sound being better, might actually mean that the host is doing something to the sound that is not meant to be happening, or it genuinely might be producing a better quality sound.

I agree with the OP though, your audio interface, and the speakers you use would be a better choice for choosing to improve upon.

Listen to anything through a $200 interface , through $400 speakers in a non treated environment Im surprised if you can hear the difference between DAWS when you havent acoustically treated your room. I certainly can't. Thats why we have mastering engineers and all their equipment to rely upon for sorting out the sound.

[Dewaine]

+1 to Syrath.... I know for example that FL Studio takes about -6db off sound to help beginners so they don't clip their tracks so much. So when you play a FL track next to a '"X" DAW track, it is quieter. So a lot of dynamic range is based on volume so the FL track with not sound as "good". What I am getting at is it is possible for the host to be doing something to the sound. The actual summing engine is all maths and really there is no difference... but that does not me there could be something else going on.

And yes, your audio interface and speakers are HUGE! If you are composing and mixing through a standard on board sound card, your tracks will never have the quality you want. Computer speakers are worthless for anything but beeps to let you know you caused a Windows error.

Bottom line: Your DAW is just one piece of your music creation. ALL modern programs, can create near professional/professional results. Also, all modern cars can take you to all major cites in your country. But those cars need roads to do so. Your computer, audio interface and speakers are the "roads" for your DAW.....

[bullshark]

+1 to Syrath.... I know for example that FL Studio takes about -6db off sound to help beginners so they don't clip their tracks so much.

Never used FL but I think it would be the panning law they use and has nothing to do with "help beginners". The panning law can be configured in some host; some, like Reaper, even on a per track basis, overriding the master.

But yes, I think panning law value and it's effect on perceived loudness has fooled more than a few inexperienced beginners into thinking one host sound better than another.

[Spin Boyz]

Personally , Im not one of these people who says X host is better than Y host for sound quality. The simple answer is that I do believe that the sound from one host will be different from another.

However the perception of that sound being better, might actually mean that the host is doing something to the sound that is not meant to be happening, or it genuinely might be producing a better quality sound.

I agree with the OP though, your audio interface, and the speakers you use would be a better choice for choosing to improve upon.

Listen to anything through a $200 interface , through $400 speakers in a non treated environment Im surprised if you can hear the difference between DAWS when you havent acoustically treated your room. I certainly can't. Thats why we have mastering engineers and all their equipment to rely upon for sorting out the sound.

Brilliant!

[hibidy]

As per the OP, I do not understand why those of us who DO think there is a difference in host quality (by whatever means) are chastised over it!

It would be nice if at least the majority realizes that the posting of such info IS NOT to justify a personal attachment ( at least certainly not from me ) but to share information.

I cannot understand why (unless of course it's mean/abrupt) there is not at least some consideration for those who hear a difference! After all, I personally could care less which host anyone uses (and please notice I do not push one or the other) but if someone thinks it's different I think some of the attack-oriented words are a bit much.

[syrath]

As per the OP, I do not understand why those of us who DO think there is a difference in host quality (by whatever means) are chastised over it!

It would be nice if at least the majority realizes that the posting of such info IS NOT to justify a personal attachment ( at least certainly not from me ) but to share information.

I cannot understand why (unless of course it's mean/abrupt) there is not at least some consideration for those who hear a difference! After all, I personally could care less which host anyone uses (and please notice I do not push one or the other) but if someone thinks it's different I think some of the attack-oriented words are a bit much.

Going back to my earlier post I would like to add that if a sound sounded better in Ableton Live than it did, in say Sonar, I would be questioning which one is actually better.

To me the one its the one with the flatest response, and affected change the least. If Live sounded better, it could be because it is doing something to the sound that makes me percieve the sound as sounding better. Is this because the sound is better or is this because Live processes the sound in such a way that it sounds better. Alternatively it could have done something that makes something sound better in my own listening environment. If it is doing anything but be as transparent as possible then it isnt in fact sounding better, but changing the sound Im listening to.

Ultimately I cannot tell, unless I have an acoustically treated room, running some test frequencies through my own set up , capturing those same sounds and comparing them with the original, would I be able to tell how accurate my whole system is DAW and all. Of these the least factor involved is most likely the DAW itself, with the speakers, listening environment and soundcard probably being the top 3 candidates for giving me a pure sound.

Even the best of speakers do not even have a flat frequency response, so how can I tell which DAW is better. It could be just that I have a 0.2 dB increase in certain bass frequencies coupled with a 0.1 dB increase at the same frequency caused by something the DAW is doing, when I play a certain song that has its bass sitting at exactly the same frequency giving me the perception that the bass is 0.3 dB louder, making it sound that much sweeter to my ears. In effect making me mix that bass frequency down 0.3 dB and making it sound weaker on someone elses system. Another track may have a similar effect on a completely different system.

Many people listen to a track on a different hi-fi and frequently think that the hifi is better because it has a frequency response different from their more commonly listened hifi. Giving the resulting comment "I cant remember hearing that as clearly before". Not that either hifi is actually better, but the perception that the other one sounds better.

[CypherOne]

honestly why do people debate the sound quality of a host?


'cos the weather's too shit for trainspotting?

[hibidy]

I hear allot of valid arguments, it's just that I "hear" differnces

Ok, I'm sure it's gonna get me more enemies, but to state for me personally.....

a. I never ever EVER have different DB's when doing any "listening"........it's always 0db

b. If I'm using a plug (let's say, guitar input plug "a") I only use presets............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

c. I never do my comparisons with soft-synths.........too subjective, too strange.......etc.....

d. However, I will take certain "freezing/rendering" aspects into consideration (for example, all out/non-mixed renders for clarity)

e. never ever ever EVER EVER are they at diffent sample rates or different bit rates or different plugs (although I do pc/mac specifics sometimes ) and that is SAME SOUNDCARD!!!!!!!!!!

f. Sorry, all I can do is what my ears tell me.........I have no favorite host (frankly, I hate them all!) and don't have any "pushing/selling" to do

All in all, again, I really don't care what anyone else believes/hears......I'm just saying that I do. I have a hard time believing I"m the only one!