honestly why do people debate the sound quality of a host?

[hoffy]

I believe hosts sound different:

if every host has a different time stretching algorhithim then this will contribute to the final mix if timestretching was used.

and i've observed that rendered loops in certain hosts will exhibit very, very slight timing inconisistencies- but they exist.

Many very prominent engineers and producers will argue that different hosts have a unique sound- and i would personally trust their judgements more than a group of random forum lurkers.

In any case none of this makes any difference at all to the quality of a song. Who cares if hosts sound different? A host isn't going to make a song sound better. If you go to a restuarant and your meal tastes bad- you don't blame the stove, you blame the chef!

[jupiter8]

I hear allot of valid arguments, it's just that I "hear" differnces

Ok, I'm sure it's gonna get me more enemies, but to state for me personally.....

a. I never ever EVER have different DB's when doing any "listening"........it's always 0db

b. If I'm using a plug (let's say, guitar input plug "a") I only use presets............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

c. I never do my comparisons with soft-synths.........too subjective, too strange.......etc.....

d. However, I will take certain "freezing/rendering" aspects into consideration (for example, all out/non-mixed renders for clarity)

e. never ever ever EVER EVER are they at diffent sample rates or different bit rates or different plugs (although I do pc/mac specifics sometimes ) and that is SAME SOUNDCARD!!!!!!!!!!

f. Sorry, all I can do is what my ears tell me.........I have no favorite host (frankly, I hate them all!) and don't have any "pushing/selling" to do

All in all, again, I really don't care what anyone else believes/hears......I'm just saying that I do. I have a hard time believing I"m the only one!

Well the thing is it's very easy to test for yourself. Not only that,we did the test here a while back (like a year or so) ago and there were no difference. So the reason you hear a difference is something else. Could be just about anything.

Say you have a host that for some reason defaults to half volume. If you just play an audiofile straight thru it and compare that to another host it's going to sound different. However you never just import something and leave it at that volume. You're going to change it. And when you change it to the same level in all hosts they are going to be identical. It is a scientific fact. As easy as that. Really, this isn't an opinion or preference or anything else. It's fact.

You might as well argue that the Earth is flat.
I can easily see that the Earth is flat and it is common sense it cannot be round because then those pesky Australians would fall off into space. However that's still not the case no matter how funny it might seem.

There are a couple of reasons i'm so vocal in these threads. I try to keep it civil as long as possible but sometimes fail like everyone else. (When one guy decided it was a good idea to test the difference with two different samplers i just snapped)
One is to counter marketing BS. Unsubstantiated claims just get on my nerves.
I hate seeing noobs spend their hard earned cash on something someone just dreamed up one day. It's very common to see noobs ask if they should change from FLStudio (for example) to Cubase (for example) to get higher quality mixes. When in fact they won't. You can see it as a service from me. Thank's to you too.You're welcome.
And not too mention the "Doood you use Flooops? LOLZORs Logic is da leet shit.Instant pro mixes" crowd.

It's like those Mac guys whose only argument is "They're simply better". If all you do is regurgitate marketing BS you will get into trouble one day or another.

[hibidy]

I believe hosts sound different:

if every host has a different time stretching algorhithim then this will contribute to the final mix if timestretching was used.

and i've observed that rendered loops in certain hosts will exhibit very, very slight timing inconisistencies- but they exist.

Many very prominent engineers and producers will argue that different hosts have a unique sound- and i would personally trust their judgements more than a group of random forum lurkers.

In any case none of this makes any difference at all to the quality of a song. Who cares if hosts sound different? A host isn't going to make a song sound better. If you go to a restuarant and your meal tastes bad- you don't blame the stove, you blame the chef!

very true,

depending on the "chef", he will use certain ingredients/etc, and will ALWAYS mix them different than the "other" guy.

I just think it's impossible that with different routing/etc they are all "the same".......but then again, I'm just agreeing with you it seems

[hibidy]

I hear allot of valid arguments, it's just that I "hear" differnces

Ok, I'm sure it's gonna get me more enemies, but to state for me personally.....

a. I never ever EVER have different DB's when doing any "listening"........it's always 0db

b. If I'm using a plug (let's say, guitar input plug "a") I only use presets............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

c. I never do my comparisons with soft-synths.........too subjective, too strange.......etc.....

d. However, I will take certain "freezing/rendering" aspects into consideration (for example, all out/non-mixed renders for clarity)

e. never ever ever EVER EVER are they at diffent sample rates or different bit rates or different plugs (although I do pc/mac specifics sometimes ) and that is SAME SOUNDCARD!!!!!!!!!!

f. Sorry, all I can do is what my ears tell me.........I have no favorite host (frankly, I hate them all!) and don't have any "pushing/selling" to do

All in all, again, I really don't care what anyone else believes/hears......I'm just saying that I do. I have a hard time believing I"m the only one!

Well the thing is it's very easy to test for yourself. Not only that,we did the test here a while back (like a year or so) ago and there were no difference. So the reason you hear a difference is something else. Could be just about anything.

Say you have a host that for some reason defaults to half volume. If you just play an audiofile straight thru it and compare that to another host it's going to sound different. However you never just import something and leave it at that volume. You're going to change it. And when you change it to the same level in all hosts they are going to be identical. It is a scientific fact. As easy as that. Really, this isn't an opinion or preference or anything else. It's fact.

You might as well argue that the Earth is flat.
I can easily see that the Earth is flat and it is common sense it cannot be round because then those pesky Australians would fall off into space. However that's still not the case no matter how funny it might seem.

There are a couple of reasons i'm so vocal in these threads. I try to keep it civil as long as possible but sometimes fail like everyone else. (When one guy decided it was a good idea to test the difference with two different samplers i just snapped)
One is to counter marketing BS. Unsubstantiated claims just get on my nerves.
I hate seeing noobs spend their hard earned cash on something someone just dreamed up one day. It's very common to see noobs ask if they should change from FLStudio (for example) to Cubase (for example) to get higher quality mixes. When in fact they won't. You can see it as a service from me. Thank's to you too.You're welcome.
And not too mention the "Doood you use Flooops? LOLZORs Logic is da leet shit.Instant pro mixes" crowd.

It's like those Mac guys whose only argument is "They're simply better". If all you do is regurgitate marketing BS you will get into trouble one day or another.

One thing that is FOR CERTAIN about me is I do not regurgitate marketing BS! As I stated.......frankly, I HATE THEM ALL!

All I'm trying to say is that I'm not one to compare oranges to concrete blocks......If I have something to say about difference/quality/whatever.......I do whatever I can to keep it consistant

AND I hear what everyone (and you ) are saying..........I'm really REALLY not trying to convince anyone.......I'm simply saying that there are differences in opionion and it's ok to discuss these things.........there is NO WAY we/me/whoever are always right

[jupiter8]

A couple of more point: Ever noticed there are couple of guys around here that actually does this for a living ? If one of them tells you there's no difference,are you going to take <insert famous producer>s word over them ? I remember seeing one of the Cakewalk guys (Ron Kuper?) second guessing himself and did the null test with Cubase. Oh fine.They're doing it the same way we are.

And imagine you were new to to this and are about to spend you're hardearned cash on a host that isn't as expensive and then read you must spend at least 1000$ to be leet. You should be kissing my feet when i tell you can safely go with the cheaper host as it has identical sound to the more expensive one. And not to mention it might fit you much better. Why struglle with a host you don't like for a feature that does'nt exist. To me real features are more important than imaginary ones.

[johnnytluxury]

I hear allot of valid arguments, it's just that I "hear" differnces

Ok, I'm sure it's gonna get me more enemies, but to state for me personally.....

a. I never ever EVER have different DB's when doing any "listening"........it's always 0db

b. If I'm using a plug (let's say, guitar input plug "a") I only use presets............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

c. I never do my comparisons with soft-synths.........too subjective, too strange.......etc.....

d. However, I will take certain "freezing/rendering" aspects into consideration (for example, all out/non-mixed renders for clarity)

e. never ever ever EVER EVER are they at diffent sample rates or different bit rates or different plugs (although I do pc/mac specifics sometimes ) and that is SAME SOUNDCARD!!!!!!!!!!

f. Sorry, all I can do is what my ears tell me.........I have no favorite host (frankly, I hate them all!) and don't have any "pushing/selling" to do

All in all, again, I really don't care what anyone else believes/hears......I'm just saying that I do. I have a hard time believing I"m the only one!

Its kinda funny, I get the same response when I challenge Christians on whether or not god is real. their answers are usually pseudo-scientific, and it always comes down to," I just believe He exists, I can't understand why you don't! Please, no offense, hibidty, just makin point. And that point is thats its a moot point, as stated before. the very idea that this thread continues is the same reason we cant accurately challenge each other on leather vs. faux or freakier chicks in Germany or California, its just personal choice. It can just go on and on, no true answer because none of us can fault or support anothers ears. Just our own.
But, as I'm feel contribution is worth more than criticism, I'll add my own theory. At the end of the day, all data in a computer is 0's and 1's. The very data stream itself no mater where it comes from, if it is the EXACT same data stream it will be interpreted by your soundcard EXACTLY the same. Now, if only somebody could get ahold of the data stream from a few different DAWs. unfortunately, our hosts have so many specialized information proprietary to themselves alone that shows up as extra bits, the data stream will never look alike when comparing X and O. So, there we are, back to our only so called 'true' way of testing, our ears. And man is perfect, right?
You can believe hosts sound different. You have that right.

[jupiter8]

Now, if only somebody could get ahold of the data stream from a few different DAWs.

Uhhh? Render to disk anyone ? How hard is that ? The soundcard is in no way or form involved.

unfortunately, our hosts have so many specialized information proprietary to themselves alone that shows up as extra bits, the data stream will never look alike when comparing X and O.

Whatever gave you that idea ? We did test it and there were no extra bits anywhere. They were identical.

[Mutant]

honestly why do people debate the sound quality of a host?

Because some people are trolls and some people are easily trolled.

Because some people are silly newbies and some people want to educate the silly newbies.

[hibidy]

ok, well, I'm just trying to tell you what I think.

Not trying to be a "troll" or whatever so although some are trying to be hurtful, I'll just keep trying to voice an opinion

[hibidy]

I hear allot of valid arguments, it's just that I "hear" differnces

Ok, I'm sure it's gonna get me more enemies, but to state for me personally.....

a. I never ever EVER have different DB's when doing any "listening"........it's always 0db

b. If I'm using a plug (let's say, guitar input plug "a") I only use presets............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

c. I never do my comparisons with soft-synths.........too subjective, too strange.......etc.....

d. However, I will take certain "freezing/rendering" aspects into consideration (for example, all out/non-mixed renders for clarity)

e. never ever ever EVER EVER are they at diffent sample rates or different bit rates or different plugs (although I do pc/mac specifics sometimes ) and that is SAME SOUNDCARD!!!!!!!!!!

f. Sorry, all I can do is what my ears tell me.........I have no favorite host (frankly, I hate them all!) and don't have any "pushing/selling" to do

All in all, again, I really don't care what anyone else believes/hears......I'm just saying that I do. I have a hard time believing I"m the only one!

Its kinda funny, I get the same response when I challenge Christians on whether or not god is real. their answers are usually pseudo-scientific, and it always comes down to," I just believe He exists, I can't understand why you don't! Please, no offense, hibidty, just makin point. And that point is thats its a moot point, as stated before. the very idea that this thread continues is the same reason we cant accurately challenge each other on leather vs. faux or freakier chicks in Germany or California, its just personal choice. It can just go on and on, no true answer because none of us can fault or support anothers ears. Just our own.
But, as I'm feel contribution is worth more than criticism, I'll add my own theory. At the end of the day, all data in a computer is 0's and 1's. The very data stream itself no mater where it comes from, if it is the EXACT same data stream it will be interpreted by your soundcard EXACTLY the same. Now, if only somebody could get ahold of the data stream from a few different DAWs. unfortunately, our hosts have so many specialized information proprietary to themselves alone that shows up as extra bits, the data stream will never look alike when comparing X and O. So, there we are, back to our only so called 'true' way of testing, our ears. And man is perfect, right?
You can believe hosts sound different. You have that right.

I'm not offended, again, frankly, I could care less what host someone chooses OR why. I just cannot escape certain things my ears hear. That is all.............

[nuffink]

Actually it comes down to a modern belief that you can choose your own version of reality even in the face of mathematical proof. There are no facts for some people, only opinions, and they get upset when those with a grip on reality point this out.

[hibidy]

and to add......TRUST ME............at any cost.............I would LOVE TO BE WRONG.........! sure would make things easier!

[hibidy]

Actually it comes down to a modern belief that you can choose your own version of reality even in the face of mathematical proof. There are no facts for some people, only opinions, and they get upset when those with a grip on reality point this out.

well, that's certainly true.

I'd just hope at least the majority would understand that my posting is not about "ME" and more about if I'm thinking this way.......maybe I'm not alone?

At any rate, I'm just playing devil's advocate in some regards.........UNDER NO CERCUMSTANCES do I want to influence anyone..........I just think it's important to voice myself.

[nuffink]

I would LOVE TO BE WRONG

Just as well

[kmonkey]

Because of Null test!