Upright Bass distortion - solved

[hypolydien]

Hi,

I have been having a hard time trying to get the Upright Bass to sound properly.

It seems some of the samples have some distortion i can't get rid of.

It happens in the range of G4 to C5(Cakewalk note naming). THe A is the worst.

Could it be that the samples got corrupted during installation? or is there something I am not getting?

It happens wether I play the Upright Bass through ManyGuitar or ManyBass.

I tried to EQ down the bass levels but it doesn't change anything.
I am posting examples here to demonstrate:

Srtaight with no treatment, Amp sim nor EQ

http://quadruplum.com/music/mtupbstest_straight.mp3


With some EQ

http://quadruplum.com/music/mtupbstest_eq.mp3

Has anyone experience the same thing or has suggestions?

Thanks

[theshaggyfreak]

Is it possible that you're hearing where a note or two gets a bit of a buzz? That's actually the sound of the string lightly buzzing against the fret board and it happens. I played upright bass for a few years and sometimes it was just something you lived with. *shrug*

[Gregjazz]

No, that's the natural sound of the G string on an upright bass. Unlike the lower strings, it has more 'mwah' to it. So while the low strings decay like an electric bass, the notes around that range that you describe have a little swell.

[hypolydien]

Thanks for the replies guys,

Greg, I guess I can understand what you are saying. I am a string player myself, I play violin and viola, we never use the open E string as well as the F natural and the F#(could even stretch the practice to G) on the E string for long held notes; their sound is basically much too bright, nasal and well... kinda ugly. we will use those fingerings in fast passages but we will go to the A string in a higher position for longer notes.

I imagine "live" bass players would do the same thing about the range you are describing on the G string for the bass. They would go higher on the D string to play those notes.

Unfortunately, it kind of makes the Upright Bass unusable for me in this range. I find it's more than just a swell, but distorts to a point that makes it unpleasant to the listener. And this is a range which is pretty hard to avoid. Which is really too bad because I absolutely LOVE the instrument in all the other ranges.

I do own VSampler, so I am thinking about asking for the VSampler format. In VSampler, I do get access to all the zones and I could stretch neighbouring samples to cover this range. Is the Upright Bass sampled chromatically?

It brings me to another question, but maybe I am out of line here. Do any samples of the same notes played on the A string instead of the G exist from the recording sessions? I could paste them in VSampler to replace the existing ones.

Thanks,

Jean

[manytone]

Hi hypolydien

Another option is that you can open the Upright Bass Samplesets in our ManyMapper and remap the sets to your liking. ManyMapper allows you to do this.

You'll have to wait for Greg to reply though to see if he has more samples etc. but you should be able to do something more to your liking with a remap.

Paul

[hypolydien]

Thanks for the MannyMapper tip Paul,

I am not sure I understand how to direct MannyMapper to the soundsets though.
When I click import or load project in MannyMapper, nothing shows up.
There is also Compile Path button, but it leads to a C: drive marking and all my soundsets are on my D: drive.

[Gregjazz]

Thanks for the MannyMapper tip Paul,

I am not sure I understand how to direct MannyMapper to the soundsets though.
When I click import or load project in MannyMapper, nothing shows up.
There is also Compile Path button, but it leads to a C: drive marking and all my soundsets are on my D: drive.

I think you have to put the soundsets you want to import in the same directory as ManyMapper in order for it to "see" the soundset.

Relating to your previous post:

When I play electric bass, I generally stay away from open strings unless I need that tone, because it gives me more flexibility on the fretboard. However, one thing I noticed right away about upright players is that they use open strings and play near open strings a lot. I think it has to do with two factors: it's easier to keep in tune, since the notes aren't so close together as they are higher up on the fret board. Also, you get more sustain, which is important, since upright bass doesn't have all that much in the first place.

If you really can't stand those samples, you could stretch the samples around them to cover it.

[hypolydien]

Thanks for the MannyMapper tip Paul,

I am not sure I understand how to direct MannyMapper to the soundsets though.
When I click import or load project in MannyMapper, nothing shows up.
There is also Compile Path button, but it leads to a C: drive marking and all my soundsets are on my D: drive.

I think you have to put the soundsets you want to import in the same directory as ManyMapper in order for it to "see" the soundset.

OK, I put the sound sets in the same dirstory as ManyMapper. It extracted all the .wavs to that very folder and ManyMapper can see them.

I am still interested in getting the VSampler version, because I must admit I am much more confortable doing this kind of work in VSampler, with the visual access to all the zones and all.
I still have the email I received with the from you when I purchased the Upright Bass. If it is OK, I will send you a reply to ask for the VSampler version.

Thanks,

Jean

[hypolydien]

I also noticed, opening the samples in SoundForge that the samples in the soundsets are 32 bit samples. Does that create a problem since my soundcard(M-Audio delta 1010LT) only support up to 24 bit.

One more thing, I tried some edits on the samples themselves, and I noticed that that if EQ down the bass, the sample distortion seem to disapear, even after renormalizing the level up to -0.5db.
I'll to check this more in depth when I have more time. It would be cool if I could fix the sample themselves, because it is only a very few which behave funny.

[Gregjazz]

I also noticed, opening the samples in SoundForge that the samples in the soundsets are 32 bit samples. Does that create a problem since my soundcard(M-Audio delta 1010LT) only support up to 24 bit.

I think it should be fine in SoundForge. They play through SoundForge on one of my soundcards which I know will definitely not support anything above 24-bit.

One more thing, I tried some edits on the samples themselves, and I noticed that that if EQ down the bass, the sample distortion seem to disapear, even after renormalizing the level up to -0.5db.
I'll to check this more in depth when I have more time. It would be cool if I could fix the sample themselves, because it is only a very few which behave funny.

Would you mind sending me one of these samples, where you've EQ'd down the bass so the distortion disappears? I would be interested in comparing them, so I can hear what exactly you are talking about.

[hypolydien]

One more thing, I tried some edits on the samples themselves, and I noticed that that if EQ down the bass, the sample distortion seem to disapear, even after renormalizing the level up to -0.5db.
I'll to check this more in depth when I have more time. It would be cool if I could fix the sample themselves, because it is only a very few which behave funny.

Would you mind sending me one of these samples, where you've EQ'd down the bass so the distortion disappears? I would be interested in comparing them, so I can hear what exactly you are talking about.

Done!

Thanks,

Jean

[frequency_algorithm]

That's the natural buzz of the string on the neck of the bass guitar. It's like the click of the hammers on a rhodes piano; this side effect is a good thing.

[Gregjazz]

Jean, I received the sound samples and your EQ versions, thank you!

I still can't hear any distortion from those samples. When I listen to the EQ'd ones, they sound tinny. In the EQ pictures, the area where the fundamental frequencies reside is what you notched, from around -6 to -12 db, which is pretty severe. What that leads me to believe is that maybe it's your speakers fault?

Looking at the Edirol product specs, it says the frequency range only goes down to 45 hz (also the speakers are each only 10 watts). The fundamental frequency of the low E string on a bass is 43.6535289291 hz, already below that range--not to mention that if you look at the spectrum analysis of a bass, there are pitches sounding below the fundamental frequency too. My guess would be that it's a speaker-related issue, not an issue with the samples.

For example, here are some quotes from a review on these Edirol speakers (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9 ... -2002.html)

The Edirol was beyond the limits of usable at 40 Hz with the 80 dB setting, and 50 Hz with the 60 dB setting.

The Edirols also distorted at the 80 dB setting, though not to the same extent as the HK195. At the 60 dB setting, I could barely hear the double-bass and the guitar, and I only heard them because I was straining to hear them.

The Edirols are not a bad second choice, but they lack the bass, power handling, and finesse of the Swans. The Edirols did have slightly better tonality on some high frequency passages. I could not get over the sloppy construction, but in the end, the sound is most important. The built in DAC could really be handy in some situations.

So it probably would be worth it listening to the upright on a different sound system to compare and see if this is the issue.

[hypolydien]

So it probably would be worth it listening to the upright on a different sound system to compare and see if this is the issue.

Hi Greg,

It does look like it was the speakers after all.

I finally had the time to test the upright on a different system. I burned on a CD this small track with the entire range, played chromatically(well almost, i did let a bit of the extreme upper range. The is in 3 sections: 1. range below the notes where I was getting distortion, 2. the "problem range" going up and down, 3. the range above

http://quadruplum.com/music/mtupbstest_straightchr.mp3

I played the CD on our living room sound system, which has a pair of 15" speakers. No distortion there.
Tried it in our car system, I did get some distortion there.
However, I found that if I give the instrument a 0 to-10db notch EQ between 50Hz to 200Hz, peaking at 90Hz. The distortion disapears on my speakers.

I guess I will keep that trick in mind if i am using the UB for a mix to be played on lesser quality speakers.

Anyway, I would like to say thank you for all the help.

I might be shopping for better monitors. I will probably look at something with 5" woofers.
BTW, if anyone wants to help me they could play the mp3 above and tell me if their speakers can reproduce it, that would be greatly appreciated in my search

[manytone]

Hi hypolydien

You said this:
I might be shopping for better monitors. I will probably look at something with 5" woofers.
End Quote

I would highly suggest if you do decide to get bigger monitors, to look for at least 6" minimum and if you really want the Natural bass tones look at the 8" models. There are still some nice inexpensive 6 and 8" models that will give you a much better response than the 5" you mention. 5 inch is only a bit bigger than what you have now.

In the low end price range pehaps look at the Event 6 and 8 inch and the new model of the M Audio 8" (BX8a). Both these brands are great for the money in the low end bracket. (also some others KRK ...etc) If you have more to spend look at the Mackie stuff. But basically all I am saying is if you are going to get new monitors ....get 6 or 8's.
Just letting you know what I thought was nice ... I have had them all here in the studio to test and trial and in the lower price range models, I liked the Events (TR8 and TR8XL) and the 8" M Audio (new model BX8a... not the original BX8). (These 2 blew away some of the comparable other brand names in the same price range)

Glad we sorted this ..... Greg and I spent a bit of time trying to hear what you did and both of us had this feeling that it could be your speakers.
Paul