Amp sims as, well, amp sims

[eduardo_b]

With all the complaints about the shortcomings of amp sims, presumably from those who are far more knowlegeable than myself, I found an interesting observation in the August issue of EQ at the beginning of an article about getting the most from amp sims. For those without access to this issue, I'll quote from Craig Anderston:

"While some people debate endlessly whether amp sims sound just like the 'real thing' or not, others are forging ahead and creating new sounds with these new tools. Reality check: If you want the exact sound of a Vox AC30, well, buy a Vox AC30. But if you want a sound that's based on an AC30 but then goes places that conventional hardware can't, amp sims can do some fun tricks..."

Discuss.

[shogger]

There is no "exact" sound of an AC30 as not two of them do sound the same. The handfull AC30s I played (yes, most of them were really old) sounded poor or mediocre and never like the good ones. Worse with Marshalls. Played and tried quite some of them and nearly all of them sounded basically poor (before I modded them).
In Revalver I can finetune all amps the way I like them. If this then does sound exactly like Jimmies or Michaels or Eddies amps, I dunno and I don't really care because it sounds good.

Shogger

[shamann]

No matter how good a simulation gets, there will always be a faction who will insist that it doesn't sound as good as the real thing. It's the nature of the game.

Anderton isn't saying anything new. Consider flutes and synthesizers. Flutes are commonly emulated sounds, even on old analogue subtractive monosynths. The synth made to sound like a flute never really sounds like a flute, but can be a really useful all on its own. Sometimes, what you really need is "flute-like" and not an actual flute.

Only difference here is that guitarists in our day and age take gear myths and fetish to a new, remarkable extreme.

[AndrewSimon]

With all the complaints about the shortcomings of amp sims, presumably from those who are far more knowlegeable than myself, I found an interesting observation in the August issue of EQ at the beginning of an article about getting the most from amp sims. For those without access to this issue, I'll quote from Craig Anderston:

"While some people debate endlessly whether amp sims sound just like the 'real thing' or not, others are forging ahead and creating new sounds with these new tools. Reality check: If you want the exact sound of a Vox AC30, well, buy a Vox AC30. But if you want a sound that's based on an AC30 but then goes places that conventional hardware can't, amp sims can do some fun tricks..."

Discuss.

Once "consumers" will accept this, then developers will start building "new virtual amps" that do not try to emulate anything but rather taking us to "new tone territory" we never heard before.
At that point a new era will start and a generation later our kids/grand-kids will be scratching their heads about how we ever managed with tube amps alone...

Hopefully soon...

[guitarzan]

Once "consumers" will accept this, then developers will start building "new virtual amps" that do not try to emulate anything but rather taking us to "new tone territory" we never heard before.
At that point a new era will start and a generation later our kids/grand-kids will be scratching their heads about how we ever managed with tube amps alone...

Hopefully soon...

Yeah...I've tried dropping a few hints with dev's about going beyond, but no response whatsoever....I'm 100% sure it'll happen though. Damn...I'm on my way out the door now and this thread seems like it's going in an interesting direction! I hope I can catch it still in progress later on!!

[eduardo_b]

I'll quote from Craig Anderston:

"...But if you want a sound that's based on an AC30 but then goes places that conventional hardware can't, amp sims can do some fun tricks..."

Discuss.

Once "consumers" will accept this, then developers will start building "new virtual amps" that do not try to emulate anything but rather taking us to "new tone territory" we never heard before...

I see amp simulations the way I see the mania for VA synths. A fine idea whose time has come and gone. The wheel continues to be reinvented, but they're all variations of the same wheel. Which would be okay if more effort was also going into new kinds of wheels. For me, amp sims are just dandy because I don't know enough to realize what fine points I might be missing in the virtual hardware versions, and I'm also happy to go where no hardware amp has gone before.

[susiwong]

While I agree the sound itself is a matter of taste and shouldn't be overestimated, the change of sound in response to the touch of the player is the real showstopper. Imho we're not even 50% there right now, ymmv.
And it doesn't matter if we're talking hardware (Pod & Co) or software here.
Of course that doesn't say ampsims can't do a brilliant job for certain styles, but if your playing relies on fine nuances generated by your touch you still need a real (tube) amp, preferably vintage style since the simpler designs without modern bells and whistles tend to be more responsive. Tubes alone are not the ticket to sonic bliss.
Ymmv,
susiwong

[CapnLockheed]

While I agree the sound itself is a matter of taste and shouldn't be overestimated, the change of sound in response to the touch of the player is the real showstopper. Imho we're not even 50% there right now, ymmv.
And it doesn't matter if we're talking hardware (Pod & Co) or software here.
Of course that doesn't say ampsims can't do a brilliant job for certain styles, but if your playing relies on fine nuances generated by your touch you still need a real (tube) amp, preferably vintage style since the simpler designs without modern bells and whistles tend to be more responsive. Tubes alone are not the ticket to sonic bliss.
Ymmv,
susiwong

Right on....my favorite guitar tone generator is my trusty
'56 Vibrolux. I've never owned a more responsive amp. Its
every bit as expressive an instrument as the guitars I plug
into it. That being said...I own waaaaaaaaaay too many stomp
boxes, hardware fx processors and nearly every hard and soft
ampsim known to man. They're all good tools and they all have
their place on the pallette. I just can't understand all the
pissing and moaning about this is better than that or when are
they finally going to make that plugin that makes me sound
like Jimi,(Oh, I forgot they already did!). The bottom line
is there has NEVER been a better time for guitar players in
terms of gear because there never has been so many options,(perhaps THAT is the REAL problem!).

So quitcher bitchin...SHUT UP AND PLAY YER GUITAR!!

Cheers.....CL

[Hink]

actually the bottom line is guitarists always want more...we're never 100% satisfied and ear fatigue can warp one's perception no matter how "perfect" the tone is...

[Zsolt]

Once "consumers" will accept this, then developers will start building "new virtual amps" that do not try to emulate anything but rather taking us to "new tone territory" we never heard before.
At that point a new era will start and a generation later our kids/grand-kids will be scratching their heads about how we ever managed with tube amps alone...

Hopefully soon...

Exactly what I am thinking. Emulation is nice, but almost every product wants to emulate something. Lately I was just thinking about starting to develop an amp plugin, which would introduce new things, new tonal possibilities and not try to emulate something. The problem is, I can't program (AND I'd have to learn lots of math ), so I could only take care of the design and graphics. But if someone's up for it, maybe with joint effort, it would be possible (I know there are lots of talented people here)

[pgvpgv333]

All I want is a great sound. How do I get it, well that doesnt matter. I am after a sound, not how to get a sound! And there is also the matter of money. Yes I would really like a Mesa and other amps.
I also feel things in the area of guitar sounds and synths will develop.

[shogger]

While I agree the sound itself is a matter of taste and shouldn't be overestimated, the change of sound in response to the touch of the player is the real showstopper.

Yes! Totally agreed. If a sound doesn't feel comfortable while playing it can be very anti-productive.

Imho we're not even 50% there right now, ymmv.

For most sounds I'm using I'm definitely there with Revalver. Dunno if I will be able to tweak the last bit out of it, too. But this is besides the sounds I can do with it the major point why i'm so happy with Revalver: I can change the RESPONSE of the amps and not only turn a treble knob or dial in some gain.

Shogger

[Niksounds]

For most sounds I'm using I'm definitely there with Revalver. Dunno if I will be able to tweak the last bit out of it, too. But this is besides the sounds I can do with it the major point why i'm so happy with Revalver: I can change the RESPONSE of the amps and not only turn a treble knob or dial in some gain.

Shogger

amps sim as amps sim also... and only this.

[tamoore]

I like the amp sims. They make a guitar sound like a guitar, and you don't have to go through all the trouble of actually setting an amp in a good room and putting a mic in front of it, and finding the sweet spot, etc.... When I'm makin' music, I don't want to be an engineer. I want to be a musician. Amp sims let me forget about the engineering side, and just focus on teh rawk.....

Besides, they sound pretty damn good...

[RooGoo]

Rene's amazing amp s(t)imulator - get it now and improve those amps.... the girls will thank you

(that one's 4 u Hinky)