DAW Audio Quality does vary... and Live 7 sneak peak!

[koolkeys]

I think Shogger has 20-40% better looking German than Jens. The only problem is, I can't hear either one of them. Do you guys work for Ableton?

Brent

[hibidy]

[shogger]

I think Shogger has 20-40% better looking German than Jens. The only problem is, I can't hear either one of them. Do you guys work for Ableton?

Brent

Well,

20-40% better audio quality here : YES! Cause I'm using a 64bit host. This makes all the difference as we all know. But I dunno what it is to "have better looking German" Do you mean what I wrote? Man, that is lotsa accent and freak style djerman in there, so ...

And for the (dunno if serious) question: I don't work for Ableton in any way. I own Live version 2 which isn't considered state of the art right now with all the superiour audio stuff on the horizon. And I don't even use Live.

Shogger

[Chris Walton]

Ich kann auch Deutsch

shogger, Nord-Deutschland? Du schreibst mit dialekt

Naja, wenns soi muss donn konn ich aach midd'm bissje hessische akzent schwätze

[popsych]

If you have a bunch of tracks with slight noise or errors say 15-30 they add up. Also what might not be heard at low volumes might be audible once you compress and limit the hell out of it.

Either way, I seriously think Live is going to surprise us with it's next release.
dw

That feels right, hm? 30 tracks plus compression beyond gravity?

Listen to this: noise test

....

On a laptop here with no headphones so i can't actually hear anything, don't know if everyone else do. The fact that the cumulation of even minute errors could theoretically drive them into audible levels cannot be disputed...

[headquest]

What I doubt: that anybody here has any idea what kind of tests Abelton has made or made.
What I do not doubt: that people on this and the Ableton forum who have no problem slinging savage critique of Ableton and Robert Henke do so out of ignorance and insecurity.

+1,000,000

And as Robert Henke said:

It is really hard to argue with someone who claims we lie, we are arrogant, who assumes we might have a reason to obscure things and who is not able to understand digital audio deep enough to start a serious discussion.

Does anyone here really have The Right to say that "they seriously doubt" Ableton did the tests properly, or claim that they know better? Ableton themselves outsourced this to experts in the scientific field because even they did not think they had enough expertise to provide conclusive or unbiased proof one way or the other - and now they have acted on the research they commissioned. Why would anyone assume that they know so much more than these top experts, and state without a grain of evidence that they probably got it wrong??? Now that really IS arrogant!!

[nuffink]

What I doubt: that anybody here has any idea what kind of tests Abelton has made or made.
What I do not doubt: that people on this and the Ableton forum who have no problem slinging savage critique of Ableton and Robert Henke do so out of ignorance and insecurity.

+1,000,000

And as Robert Henke said:

It is really hard to argue with someone who claims we lie, we are arrogant, who assumes we might have a reason to obscure things and who is not able to understand digital audio deep enough to start a serious discussion.

Does anyone here really have The Right to say that "they seriously doubt" Ableton did the tests properly, or claim that they know better? Ableton themselves outsourced this to experts in the scientific field because even they did not think they had enough expertise to provide conclusive or unbiased proof one way or the other - and now they have acted on the research they commissioned. Why would anyone assume that they know so much more than these top experts, and state without a grain of evidence that they probably got it wrong??? Now that really IS arrogant!!

Don't start a provocative thread and bitch about when people express their view, eh?
What did you expect, 6 pages of people thanking you for pointing it out?
Not only do people here have a perfect "right" to doubt Ableton's (or their proxy's) testing methodology many of them have the technical expertise to do so from a very strong position.

[headquest]

Don't start a provocative thread and bitch about when people express their view, eh?

Provocative??!!

TBH so many people have bitched about Live's audio quality - without providing any grain of their own evidence - that I thought people would be simply interested/pleased to know that the developer has taken their comments seriously, commissioned their own tests, and made some improvements that were possible

The other thing people constantly gripe about here on a daily basis is the "fact" that these developers are corporate monsters who ignore their users. That is plainly untrue in this case... and yet some people still don't have the simple ability to be happy with that.

It rather gives the impression that certain people only want to moan. When the facts show them up, they switch the moan to something else. But never have the grace to accept that a company like Ableton can actually get something right. Very unpleasant.

Not only do people here have a perfect "right" to doubt Ableton's (or their proxy's) testing methodology

...in terms of "freedom of speech" perhaps they do yes - it rather depends on the country and applicable libel laws, as discussed in another recent thread. I see that like me you reside in the UK, so are probably aware that the consequencies of posting BS on the internet about individuals or companies potentially has consequences here at least

Not saying that's necesssarily what is going on with one or two people here... the point is, if somebody has genuine CAUSE to doubt Ableton's integrity, they should come out with it, and provide evidence for their attacks. Less than that is lame cowardice.

... many of them have the technical expertise to do so from a very strong position.

Even more reason for them to provide evidence of Ableton's duplicity/ignorance/whatever, instead of making snide insinuations.

[OverDose]

...





sounds good to me, Ableton is researching and improving.
are you people researching and improving anything?


I question your METHODOLOGY!!

[tetsuneko]

I don't understand your problem. I've used my audio interface's summing for live quite a while now and I really can't hear anything wrong with it. Now, if I sum audio in live to the master fader, things start to sound very weird indeed.. So I guess all this "academic" rant is about the loss of quality when using the master fader in live?

And all this -180dB etc noise issues etc.. everybody being so rocket-scientysty and all.. Why don't you take a break from your dsp-shit and grab some books from the medical world about how the ear really works! I bet studying the hearing process would give you lot more insight into these "sound" issues than this 6 page bullshit thread where plugin developers like to outwit themselves.

Don't take this personally.. I just think I've read wayy too many threads like this already, don't you?

[nuffink]

Don't start a provocative thread and bitch about when people express their view, eh?

Provocative??!!

TBH so many people have bitched about Live's audio quality - without providing any grain of their own evidence - that I thought people would be simply interested/pleased to know that the developer has taken their comments seriously, commissioned their own tests, and made some improvements that were possible

Yes, provocative. Don't tell me that a thread whose title begins "DAW Audio Quality does vary" isn't meant to be provocative.

As for the rest, Ableton have picked up an entirely undeserved reputation for inferior sound quality. They can do a number of things about this -

• Plough on insisting it isn't true, pleasing their existing user base but gaining them no new sales from the "dude I trust my mate's ears" brigade.
  
  Admit there is a problem and pretend to fix it, pleasing the "dude I trust my mate's ears" brigade but earning them derision from the rest of the industry and the smarter general user base.
  
  Claim there's an inaudible difference that they're going to fix anyway (AKA a straw man), which doesn't annoy the technorati too much while possibly gaining them a few meathead sales.

I don't care that they've chosen the path they have. It was probably their best option. But don't tell me that this forum is somehow arrogant in questioning their experts. Companies employ "independant experts" to cook up favourable evidence all the time. It's pretty much what independant experts exist for.

[headquest]

If somebody with expert knowledge in the field wanted to contribute constructively to the debate, or question what approach the testers used, they could easily discuss it directly with Robert in the Ableton thread (their forum is open to anyone, not just registered Live owners).

The problem I have with a couple of negative comments I saw here is the presumption that they did it wrong, without any knowledge of whether they did or not. In other words, its a false accusation that can't be substantiated, or at least hasn't been so far.... It is negativity for the sake of negativity, and one has to wonder what the motives are for that .

I'm a firm believer that a person (or in this case business) are "innocent until proven guilty", so it really offends my sense of basic justice when I see people adopt a "guilty until proven innocent" form of cynicism, is all. I just think that sucks big time

Lastly, I know there are people here who are well qualified to comment... but the comments I am refering to were not from people of that ilk (nor were they specifically from you, so... peace)

[Aural Chaos]

I want %100 of the money that I paid for this thread refunded immediately. First, I got no sneak peek, and then half the thread is in German! What a rip off!

[shogger]

Ich kann auch Deutsch

shogger, Nord-Deutschland? Du schreibst mit dialekt

Naja, wenns soi muss donn konn ich aach midd'm bissje hessische akzent schwätze

Hey Chris,

woher kannste denn deutsch?

Ich bin aus Berlin.

Shogger

Edit: Meine Frau ist aus Hesse.

[shogger]

I'm a firm believer that a person (or in this case business) are "innocent until proven guilty", so it really offends my sense of basic justice when I see people adopt a "guilty until proven innocent" form of cynicism, is all. I just think that sucks big time

Yes,

so far the theory: innocent until proven guilty. Humans have a strong tendency to live the other way round. I recently heard (again) a story that people had to move houses to protect their lives until they were proven innocent. But you know the game. Hollywood knows that thingy, too.

Shogger