What on earth are these things?

[Madrayken]

My bid to learn theory is tucking along, and I'm trying to understand chord progressions, particularly minor progressions.

So far, I'm pretty happy with Cmaj and Amin (natural) keys (spot the keyboard player). However, along my travels I found this item in Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_progression

Now, when you get to the part where they describe the common progressions I'm confused by difference between "bVII" and what appears to be "(flat symbol) VII".

Surely, both are 'a seven chord, all flattened by one semitone'?

What's the difference, please?

Any clues would be gratefully received!

Thanks!

[Sascha Franck]

Now, when you get to the part where they describe the common progressions I'm confused by difference between "bVII" and what appears to be "(flat symbol) VII".

I think, they're both the same.

Surely, both are 'a seven chord, all flattened by one semitone'?

No, it's a chord building up one the flatted seventh degree of a scale. In the key of C it'd be a Bb chord. In the key of A a G chord.

[Madrayken]

Really? So why the different notations on the page? Darned confusing!

[johnny2johnny]

musicial notations is ultra confusing.... the letters, A, B, C, etc actually represent certain notes, the numerals I II III IV V VI VII actually represent certain notes... but, where A, means A ,


in the key of A, A = I,, D = IV, and E = V

now in the key of E, A still means A, but E = I A = IV and B = V

it can be very confusing, but it has to do with notes, and placement in key.... Kinda like old somni notation ( Do Re Me Fa So La Ti Do )

If C = Do, then Re = D and so forth, but if D = Do, then E = Re, and so forth.....


I hope this aint too confusing. it can be very, very confusing. I still count notes on my fingers, and I have been at this quite some time...

[jcivil]

My bid to learn theory is tucking along, and I'm trying to understand chord progressions, particularly minor progressions.

So far, I'm pretty happy with Cmaj and Amin (natural) keys (spot the keyboard player). However, along my travels I found this item in Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_progression

Now, when you get to the part where they describe the common progressions I'm confused by difference between "bVII" and what appears to be "(flat symbol) VII".

Surely, both are 'a seven chord, all flattened by one semitone'?

What's the difference, please?

Any clues would be gratefully received!

Thanks!

a 'vii' chord is built on the seventh note of a given scale. in c major this is b, a major seventh per the tonic C; the (tertial) chord is b d f, all minor thirds, called a diminished triad. [the pull of the tritone b/f likes to go to c/e (and d can go either way, in classic voice-leading)].
a 'bVII', (note the lower case and caps in our two examples caps = major chord), can be built over the seventh degree in a minor, which naturally has a minor seventh, and is constructed: g b d, a major triad.

IE: a major scale has a major seven, a minor has a minor seven, NATURALLY. what you call a flattened seventh is artifical in major; a 'sharpened' seventh indicates a certain version of minor; in your a minor, it's g# (which is the fifth harmonic of e (and the third of an E major chord, which tends to like a, especially when you've included its 7, d, the tritone {g#/d} wants to pull in (resolve), g# as a "leading tone" to a.


do the usual exercises, build triads on all degress of natural major and minor scales for instance, and you'll start to see how it works

[Sascha Franck]

The roman numbers are actually sort of representing intervals, regardless of whether you're dealing with major or minor scales.
Just that those intervals are now used to describe a scale degree of a certain chord.
So, an E is a III chord relating to C. An Eb is a bIII chord, relating to C. Totally regardless whether the C is major or minor. Totally regardless of the scale.

[Madrayken]

jcivil - that's the clearest description I've seen so far, and pretty much clears up the 'b'. Thanks.

Last thing then; folks agree that the 'flat symbol' prefix (I can't reproduce the graphic here) to a chord (see the wiki page I originally sent a link to) *is* the same as the 'b' prefix?

[jcivil]

I tend to type, say, 'Bb' rather than 'bb'; if you see Bbb, *btw* it's the same as 'A'.

in what they call a figured bass, a classical convention, the chord we just called 'bVII' is simply indicated 'VII', since the natural 7 there is a minor or so-called flat 7, if that makes sense.


I didn't catch your initial reason for being confused, heh. in D, '7' isn't [the note] 'b', so 'bVII' [half squooshed b], is a C chord. glad I could clarify despite that.

[Madrayken]

I found a really clear and concise answer to this after a little more rooting around.

bIII is a flattened 7th. Thus a Eb, and not a E.
(flat symbol)III is a borrowed chord. i.e. borrowed from the parallel major key.

[nuffink]

I found a really clear and concise answer to this after a little more rooting around.

bIII is a flattened 7th. Thus a Eb, and not a E.
(flat symbol)III is a borrowed chord. i.e. borrowed from the parallel major key.

No, I'm afraid you haven't the bIII is a major triad built upon the the flatted third of the scale.
Relative to C major its an Ebmajor. No seventh involved.

As for the OP, as Sascha said, there's no difference between "bVII" and what appears to be "(flat symbol) VII". It's just a glitch on the page. The person who wrote the first bit couldn't find or didn't want to use a flat symbol.

[jcivil]

M's confusion initially stemmed from looking at a Wiki article, Wiki has no capacity for including characters like flat signs (or Sanskrit or Hebrew letters, etc), period.

'flat III' in minor isn't borrowed, it is simply the naturally occurring III in minor.
Do the exercises (build triads and then seventh chords on each degree of major and minor, apply a Roman numeral to each one according to its relation to the tonic), it's all self-evident.