Another good book on composition?

[Z1202]

Regarding the equal interval system, I looked into it a while back. Its VERY expensive. You can't just buy a book about it.

Thank's for the tip. I didn't realize it's really that expensive. I can understand the necessity to spend a few thousand for a really high quality training, but the whole secrecy thing looks very suspicious indeed.

Regards,
{Z}

[gravehill]

Regarding the equal interval system, I looked into it a while back. Its VERY expensive.

True.

You can't just buy a book about it. You have to basically sign up for online private lessons where an EIS independent teacher will send you a chapter each week for your lesson, you do the homework and so on

Not entirely true anymore. It used to be this way but nowadays, while you're still basically signing up for private lessons, there are books to buy. I think (but I'm not 100% sure) you can't just buy the books without getting an instructor.

[Dewdman42]

You can buy the books...but there are a lot of them and they are formatted more like work books to go along with your lessons. I bought the first one to check out. No matter what, if you can get one of those instructors to sell you the books, which they make it difficult to do...it will cost hundreds of dollars for the books and my impression from teh first one is that you'd be lost without some instructor explanation.

Someone could probably write a single volume book that explains it all in a nutshell and sells for $50 on Amazon and I think a lot of people would buy it, but the people holding the keys to this knowledge are not interested in such.

[offensive-teenager]

i just bought the idiots guide too but its still on the way

[visa tapani]

I realize that there are very different things being labelled as "the musical composition", including harmony, counterpoint, orchestration etc.

Exactly, it is important to understand that composition is no single thing, but a combination of many skills. That's why I find it a little bit weird that people are just dropping suggestions on random composition books without further information.

I too am very interested in composition books in the same manner that you are, ie. relating to large-scale structural construction. I haven't bumped any single one that would fit me well, but it seems I should take a look at the Schoenberg book.

However, building forms is a skill that is built on and leans on other skills as well, for example voice leading and such if you're doing tonal music. For that particular area I'd recommend 'Harmony and Voice Leading' by Aldwell & Schachter. Also studying musical analysis is essential if you want to get far in formal construction.

I myself am not really working with tonal material, so my needs are a little bit different. I wonder if there are any good guides on electroacoustic music formal construction?

BTW, I think you'd be better off asking the drumming question in another thread...

[Z1202]

I too am very interested in composition books in the same manner that you are, ie. relating to large-scale structural construction. I haven't bumped any single one that would fit me well, but it seems I should take a look at the Schoenberg book.

Looks there's not too much such material indeed. I got the same impression from Alan Belkin's article on composition as well (just google for his name if you're interested).

However, building forms is a skill that is built on and leans on other skills as well, for example voice leading and such if you're doing tonal music. For that particular area I'd recommend 'Harmony and Voice Leading' by Aldwell & Schachter.

Yes, I'm aware of it more or less. I have worked through Piston's harmony book and also read Gauldin's. Not sure if I should additionally invest into A&S, what would be your opinion? Also I'm under impression that voice leading subjects are anyway further covered in counterpoint books (I'm currently doing Salzer/Schachter and Kennan). And I'm still catching up with my ear training Do you think that'd cover the basics, or am I missing anything else?

Also studying musical analysis is essential if you want to get far in formal construction.

That's generally the topic which is a little obscure to me. Does it mean analysis of existing musical compositions from the subject of their harmonic/contrapuntal/instrumental and structural construction, or is there more to that? Does one need any special books on that?

I myself am not really working with tonal material, so my needs are a little bit different. I wonder if there are any good guides on electroacoustic music formal construction?

I'm mostly interested in tonal music, so I guess I cannot be of too much help here.

BTW, I think you'd be better off asking the drumming question in another thread...

Yeah, I figured that too. Thanks for your answers.

Regards,
{Z}

[arturito]

after i did the first excersises of Salzer&Schachter i went to a professeur of counterpoint in my town. He plays&sings all my counterpoint (3part voiceleading) excersises instantly. I can do it errorless now, because i learned so fast by being with an very musical man. Its so great to share the same interest while playing.
Thanks Z.

[beboop]

OK, I got the Schoenberg book , and can see that I won't be taking full advantage of it quite yet Not the fault of the book, but mine.

I'm just now learning piano, read multiple staves poorly, many of the examples are a tough slog for me -- I can't really hear them adequately from the paper, and I can't play them (well, I can hear the melody ok, and frequently recognize fragments, but that's more from the ubiquity of Beethoven than from any deep knowledge on my part).

OTOH the Russo book looks like a pretty good fit for me. I was really delighted to flip through it and realize I could read the examples easily and move directly to the exercises. Yeah, some of it seems oddly too rudimentary for a "composition" book, but the exercises seem well designed, there's never any ambiguity about what the rules are, or what the goal is, at any particular moment. I think it's going to be a pretty good book -- if nothing else, it's something I can work through now while catching up on the grunt work necessary for Schoenberg et al.

I've also received the Fux book, which also looks like something I can work through to some benefit, without too much misery. I'm kind of stumped though by one thing there, very early in the book.

Anybody have this, current W.W. Norton paperback edition? On page 36, apparently in reference to Fig. 14, Aloysius says "why did you allow the counterpoint to rise above the cantus from the fourth through seventh bar". In the example, the counterpoint stays below the cantus -- yet the intervals are marked as if the bass line were an octave higher. I understand why he's labeling compound intervals as if they were simple, but I don't get why, in bars 4-7, the simple intervals are marked as if they were inverted.

[Z1202]

after i did the first excersises of Salzer&Schachter i went to a professeur of counterpoint in my town. He plays&sings all my counterpoint (3part voiceleading) excersises instantly. I can do it errorless now, because i learned so fast by being with an very musical man. Its so great to share the same interest while playing.
Thanks Z.

Hi arturito. I'm glad it ultimately worked for you. I only feel sorry that our forum collaboration didn't really work out. I've done all 2 voice elementary exercises and currently struggling through 3 voice. Actually I started with Kennan to get another look on the subject, and also to work in a harmonic context. Maybe I should do the same as what you did

Regards,
{Z}

[Z1202]

Anybody have this, current W.W. Norton paperback edition? On page 36, apparently in reference to Fig. 14, Aloysius says "why did you allow the counterpoint to rise above the cantus from the fourth through seventh bar". In the example, the counterpoint stays below the cantus -- yet the intervals are marked as if the bass line were an octave higher. I understand why he's labeling compound intervals as if they were simple, but I don't get why, in bars 4-7, the simple intervals are marked as if they were inverted.

I don't have the book right in front of me now, but AFAIR in many examples one of the treble clefs is octave transposed (note small 8 below the clef sign).

Regards,
{Z}

[beboop]

I don't have the book right in front of me now, but AFAIR in many examples one of the treble clefs is octave transposed (note small 8 below the clef sign).

Regards,
{Z}

ha! yes, that's it -- the 8 is almost impossible to see, but the treble clef is transposed down an octave. thank you!

occurs to me that some of the perceived (and real) "difficulty" of these books is in the format and typeface -- the Schoenberg, for example, is twelve staves, four bars per system, on a small paperback format page (although it is surprisingly legible considering, a larger format would be really swell).

[musikjock]

I'm fascinated by the secrecy surrounding the EIS. If it weren't for some high profile endorsees I'd dismiss it as a scam. I'm still fairly sceptical about any system that can't be outlined in a (very) slim volume.

me as well. do you or anyone else know anything about its basic ideas?

[gravehill]

I'm fascinated by the secrecy surrounding the EIS. If it weren't for some high profile endorsees I'd dismiss it as a scam. I'm still fairly sceptical about any system that can't be outlined in a (very) slim volume.

me as well. do you or anyone else know anything about its basic ideas?

It's basically just another way of looking at music theory, but it's very much different from traditional classical or jazz theory. EIS doesn't use keys the same way traditional systems do and there's differences in handling of chords as well. I haven't gone through the whole course so I don't know everything that's in the later books. On the other hand it's compatible with traditional theory in the sense that you can explain and analyse everything with both methods. The application differs, and even though EIS doesn't teach anything about style it has a certain distinctive sound to it.

Unfortunately the EIS website is at the moment rather useless but there's an EIS forum in VI Control with plenty of musical examples as well. Several EIS teachers also hang in there so that would be the perfect place to ask questions.

[beboop]

Z, Arturito, and anyone teaching themselves counterpoint --

Any CD recommendations? Outside of of Bach, I don't have much pre-20th century stuff, and really nothing at all from the specific period that species counterpoint conventions derive from.

anything in particular you'd recommend? I just ordered a Palestrina disc, when that arrives it'll be my entire post-chant pre-Baroque collection -- y'know, I think I should probably expand that a bit

[PaulG]

Try Peter Alexander's site -

He's got courses and a bunch of self-study stuff. Link below is a good description and links on the left once there help out, too.

http://www.truespec.com/balexander-univ ... 7e703fd8d4