A REAL DAW summing test

[Pipelineaudio]

Cross posted from another forum, but especially relevant here as this always seems to come up. Delete it if you think its silly:

Being such a tired and ridiculous topic that seems to come up every 11 minutes or so, I wanted to be able to point to a link where not only would it be proven that this whole summing issue is nonsense, but where you could prove it to YOURSELF!

This actually wasn't as easy as I had imagined it would be, and there are still a few little kinks to work out.

Here are the test files to download, along with the results:

http://pipelineaudio.net/samples/summing%20test.zip

Here is how it works:

For the "Straight Test"

1. Place all three files from the "test files" folder in your project
2. Set project for 44khz
3. Turn dither off if possible
4. Render to 24 bit 44khz wave file





For the "faders down 6 master up 6 Test"

1. Place all three files from the "test files" folder in your project
2. Set project for 44khz
3. Turn all three channel faders down to -6dB
4. Set master to +6dB
5. Turn dither off if possible
6. Render to 24 bit 44khz wave file



Now, assuming that an app isn't BROKEN, every single one of these files should be identical

err wait, some of the tinfoil hat crowd claims some apps have magic pixie dust summing math that makes the sound have more SOAR, so I included the outputs just in case there were sonic differences, and they could claim they abx tested the files and found one "better" than another - yes and Im waiting for a certain Nigerian Ambassador to transfer funds into my bank account, since you know, I sent him the transfer fee.....


So, so far as you shall see, in the unity gain test we have:

REAPER, Podium, Vegas, Pro Tools, Cubase, Nuendo, SAW, Samplitude, SONAR and Logic 8

You already know the answer: Samplitude and SAW have magical supermixer properties that will make hit producing euphonanity over all these other apps right?

Wrong, every one of these is a DEAD, MINUS INFINITY, null

Given the same input, all these apps produce the same output...they sound EXACTLY the same. Unless you can posit a theory of how identical files could sound different, I think its time to start worrying about mic positioning, control room accoustics, or hey, the talent of the "talent", you know, things that might actually matter

But wait, there's more....just in case some of these apps might be doing things a little differently, we did a test of turning down the channel fader by 6dB, turning UP the master fader by 6dB and rendering. I mean, If there IS any magic pixie dust sprinkled in the code somewhere, its gotta show in the level changes, where else could it be?

Unless the app is somehow screwed up, it should still null with the unity gain files right?

well....here's where things got a little interesting

We KNOW 100% that pan laws arent an issue here, or the unity gain renders would not have nulled

so, Vegas, SONAR, REAPER, and Pro Tools nulled with the unity gain files exactly as they should.

SAW did not - what seems to be a slight error in SAW's math resulted in a render which was 0.00451dB too quiet. When this gain was added back in, the file nulled as expected - note to the Shakti Stone arrangers out there, it still didnt make a different sounding file, just a quieter one that sounded exactly the same as the others once the level error was corrected

Logic 8 also, did not render correctly, it resulted in a file which was 0.06dB too loud. Again, turning down the file to the correct level resulted in a file which nulled to -infinity with the rest of the files.

Cubase/Nuendo - here is the weirdest one. These files did not null with the others. The level was correct, we know the pan law was correct, I just dont have an explanation for why these didn't render correctly.

(actually I do, as was pointed out, this is a known issue with cubendo: http://forum.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopi ... ng&start=0 )

But before you send that check to Sylvia Browne, these nulled to -99dB, HARDLY anything to write home about






Now, it is QUITE possible there was some pilot error involved so I heartily invite you to download the tests yourself, and have at it.

For all practical purposes, I consider this summing nonsense dead and buried.

Thank you VERY MUCH to every one who helped with this so far, and anyone who might want to do this yourself (Ill be happy to update the zipfile with any new results)

[jupiter8]

Funnt that Cubase did'nt cancel out. When we did the same test here a while back it canceled out to about -150 dB IIRC.

[Pipelineaudio]

Funnt that Cubase did'nt cancel out. When we did the same test here a while back it canceled out to about -150 dB IIRC.

Me too, but at the time I had used 12 identical files. Still the unity gain cubase and nuendo cancelled fine, apparently this is a known issue shown in the linked thread at the nuendo forum, and really it isnt a big deal, as its sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo far below most people's noise floors anyhow

[jupiter8]

You messed up the link to the Nuendo forum so i can't read it.

[Pipelineaudio]

sorry, here it is http://forum.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopi ... ng&start=0

[psylevation]

But you didn't add Reason! How will I ever know now if the summing in Properleadhead Reasons is the bester or worsest?!? I think that MY Cubes 4 is the best because it has error which means it's alive and is bester than the restest. When I gets my cubesase 4.1 updates It's going to do maths betters than anyabodys elses sequencersesz and I'm gonna be the beststs!!!! You lier and sucks the big fruityloop! DIE!

Oh and thanx for clearing this up....

[bduffy]

Sorry - what's the conclusion with Cubendo? Is it a plug-in causing it, or is there a (slight) flaw in the engine?

[zircon]

So awesome, thanks for posting this.

[jupiter8]

sorry, here it is http://forum.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopi ... ng&start=0

I've actually read that thread before. Funny how it canceled out for Fredo. I've done similar tests myself and they always canceled out completly. Just for fun i even overloaded the masterbus by 3 dB and rendered as 32 bit float.Imported the file and lowered the volume by 3 dB and voila....complete silence.

[bduffy]

Must've been something with the OP's setup, then..?

[Pipelineaudio]

sorry, here it is http://forum.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopi ... ng&start=0

I've actually read that thread before. Funny how it canceled out for Fredo. I've done similar tests myself and they always canceled out completly. Just for fun i even overloaded the masterbus by 3 dB and rendered as 32 bit float.Imported the file and lowered the volume by 3 dB and voila....complete silence.

Grab these testfiles then, and do it so it nulls out, then post the *.npr so we can figure out how to do it right. Im thinking once you get nuendo to work then we can post a cubase file that works too.

What options do you set in Nuendo so that the displayed gain values match the actual gain values?

[833-45]

Maybe James Randi should offer a million dollar prize to someone who can prove that the summing of their host has more (whatever unquantifiable adjective you like). No one seems to be very eager to try and claim the one for the 'danceable' $7k speaker cables...

[Pipelineaudio]

Must've been something with the OP's setup, then..?

Thats what I was thinking, but it was done by a few people. Still, I left the files up there so anyone can download and try it

Please, IF you can get one to render correctly, please post the project file so I can update the zips

[headquest]

Thanks for posting that - very interesting stuff!

[bduffy]

Must've been something with the OP's setup, then..?

Thats what I was thinking, but it was done by a few people. Still, I left the files up there so anyone can download and try it

Please, IF you can get one to render correctly, please post the project file so I can update the zips

I'll download them now and see. I can try them on the Nuendo machine, with the 96/52 setup.