KVR Audio

Omniphonix · Post by **Omniphonix** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:53 pm

So my current setup has me tracking vocals straight from my Shure KSM44 into Ch1 on my MOTU 896HD. I suppose the MOTU has an alright preamp, but I feel like I should be able to get a much better sound with such an expensive mic and interface. My theory here, is that if I front-end the input with at least a dedicated preamp and compressor, I can do the rest of my audio polishing in Cubase with plug-ins. I find it extremely difficult to find reviews on this kind of hardware for some reason (at least for free). My hope is the vast KVR community might have some ideas. I find my self gravitating towards a few solutions in particular...

FMR Audio RNP8380/RNC1773 in a Funk Logic rack tray... $700
This is one where I seem to hear nothing but praise. A simple, transparent, analog solution that will help me to get just a solid, clean vocal recording into Cubase where I can work my digital magic. Not sure if it would make more sense to use the MOTU preamp and somehow mix inside the 896HD through the compressor before it hits the A/D converters. Also it concerns me to compress before running through a noise gate/expander.

Focusrite Voicemaster Pro... $650
I seem to hear mixed reviews on this piece, but it looks like a fantastic all-in-one box. The thing here is, I get the feeling so many effect stages in such a cheap box means all the processes will be sub-par when I could really do a lot of this in Cubase like the "vintage harmonics", tube emulation, and EQ. I do like that this would give me a noise gate stage, but I worry this might be too many weak processors when I just need a few good ones.

Focusrite Liquid Channel... $2500
This is pretty much the upper limit of what I'd be willing to spend. This seems like the most flexible option and I would think something in this price range has to have quality processing all the way through. I really like the ability to recall setups and control from a PC, but I have serious concerns about this being way too much processor for a home project studio.

Joe Meek OneQ... $660
I have similar concerns to the Voicemaster Pro with this box. Perhaps even more so considering it includes digital outputs for the same price. Another issue being there does not appear to be any noise gate/expander before the compressor stage. On the up side, I have heard nothing but good things about Joe Meek for years.

So what do you guys think? Am I just looking to throw money at a problem that could be solved with the right plug-ins? Should I get little individual half-rack and third-rack units to chain together rather than an all-in-one box? Is there some other glory box I am simply overlooking?

Omniphonix · Post by **Omniphonix** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:08 pm

Nobody here uses hardware compressors to front-end their microphone recordings?

lhama · Post by **lhama** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:24 pm

the fmr would be nice for clean, i'd have reservations about the voicemaster, i think its nice to upgrade to one good item that does one job very well (costs more but at least your happy), the liquid channel is more digital fx even if its applied at the input. no idea about the meek. not sure whats best at that price but i never really liked my 828 mkii pre amps. get a few in a shop to try. joe

Omniphonix · Post by **Omniphonix** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:43 pm

lhama wrote:the fmr would be nice for clean, i'd have reservations about the voicemaster, i think its nice to upgrade to one good item that does one job very well (costs more but at least your happy), the liquid channel is more digital fx even if its applied at the input. no idea about the meek. not sure whats best at that price but i never really liked my 828 mkii pre amps. get a few in a shop to try. joe

Yeah, I had an 828mkII before the 896HD and I do believe they are using the same preamps. I guess I shouldn't really expect much when I get 8 individual preamps on a $1000 box.

multree · Post by **multree** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:46 pm

I'm using a Universal Audio 6176 and am LOVING it. It's not transparent though - so if you want something that's high quality and very "clean" try the SafeSound P1

a very cool box by a former Neve engineer. and it's quite cheap for what it offers (looks a bit crappy though but has some charm to it)

z15 · Post by **z15** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:52 pm

I would probably spend most of the money for a killer microphone preamp and after that one or two good compressor plugins.

Why? Because you're can get a lot better plugin compressor than hardware compressor for cheap, and on the other hand it usually pays to invest in a good pre. After that, just record the mic in 24bit with a safe level setting (leaving enough headroom for any unexpected peaks, since recording with a bit lower levels won't matter so much in 24bit) and use a good sofware compressor in Cubase after that.

The kind of preamp you should get pretty much depends on how much you really want to spend, what kind of sound you want out of it and how much gain you need for the mics (probably not an issue unless you have some dynamics & ribbons that aren't too sensitive). There's quite a variety of preamps clean and vintage-sounding, cheap and expensive, you name it.

Of course this is not the Absolute Truth -tm- but this is how I would go and have actually done myself.

SongMonkey · Post by **SongMonkey** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:00 pm

I'm not a big fan of the Focusrite stuff. For the kind of loot you're willing to spend you can actually get some very fine gear which will definitely help you get to the next sonic level.

Two excellent mic pres in the $1100 range are Chandler's Germanium pre and AMI Tab-Funkenwerk's V78m. I know they're fantastic because I own and use both. The Germ is flexible and highly praised, fantastic for guitars and putting some "mojo" on cold samples, while the V78m is based on the V72, one of the finest tube circuits ever designed, it's most familiar claim to fame being that a modified version of that pre was used to record every Beatles album through Sgt. Pepper.

The FMR rack you're considering is not a bad way to go either, though not quite as "high end" in terms of electronics parts quality etc, they are very capable units.

For compression I have an RNC, an Art "Pro" VLA (which actually isn't too shabby), and I have my newest and best baby, the Purple Audio MC77, on its way to my doorstep as I write this. That one is quite a bit more expensive -- 1650 new and around 1300 used -- but it is based on the 1176, which is a classic compressor from WAY back with a damn fine pedigree.

As far as eq, you might want to check out the Speck ASC. It's around the price you're willing to pay for the Meek, and though not as colorful, WILL give you much more flexibility, and brings in much more consistent praise than the Meek. Choose the one with the transformer option -- the ASC-T.

You can make decent recordings with almost anything, but it sounds like you're ready to step into a better sonic realm. It may take a while for it all to sink in, but I don't think you'll ever regret it.

Hope that helps! Good luck with it.

Cheers.

triple p · Post by **triple p** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:13 pm

Get Nebula3, the comps are getting better with each passing minute(they are already good) and it has some really good preamps along with all the other effects that come with it.
http://www.acusticaudio.net/ Go there to check it out if you don't already they have a limited version which is only limited by the number of programs it has.
At $80 i don't know a better value for the money.

bleebsen · Post by **bleebsen** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:14 pm

This is seriously the best preamp I know. It's a DIY kit by a canadian tube freak (the preamp is not a tube design though).

I've A/Bed it with lots of expensive preamps (avalons, dan alexander audio customs). Most of the time the sound difference was like pulling a cloth from the mic.

You'd have to have some soldering experience though.

And you'd have to make your own choice in capacitors (which might be essential). I'd help.

triple p · Post by **triple p** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:18 pm

Oh and N3 has Joe Meek emulations that are pretty damn solid and they are just a preview for whats to come. The free version has it on there

MickGael · Post by **MickGael** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:33 pm

Omniphonix,

If you are considering boxes in the Focusrite Liquid Channel price range you really owe it to yourself to try some API gear.

Jaw-droppingly good on anything I've ever used it on. A rich, big, wonderful and immediately recognizable sound:

http://www.apiaudio.com/7600.html

SongMonkey · Post by **SongMonkey** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:45 pm

MickGael wrote:....If you are considering boxes in the Focusrite Liquid Channel price range you really owe it to yourself to try some API gear....

Can't go wrong there, either.

Cheers.

living sounds · Post by **living sounds** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:06 pm

I'd stay away from the Liquid channel. A hardware compressor is a great thing to own, but it's better be high end, or else there's not much point in it as far as vocals are concerned, you'd be better off with plugins. Bare in mind as well, that a great preamp doesn't do much good if it's teamed up with a poor converter. And there's not much use in buying an expensive hardware compressor but use it with a mediocre preamp (like the Motu stuff).

If you want true high end for little money DIY is the only option (I've done that). Check out jlmaudio.com for some awesome preamp kits.

Otherwise the Neve Portico 5016 is a great preamp, the universal audio LA-610 has a compressor build in as well. And those things can be resold without too much loss.

Omniphonix · Post by **Omniphonix** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:20 pm

So from the sounds of it, the bargain bin preamps in my MOTU are the culprit and I could really do fine compressing in Cubase. My only worry here is having to be particularly careful when gain staging my input whereas if I had a hardware comp/limiter I could relax a bit in that respect. At the same time, I think I would need a fairly complex comp/limiter because I really want a noise gate before the compression stage. I really don't want any gear that's going to color my sound and I'm not one of those tube nuts who swears by the "warmth" (aka: distortion) of tube gear. I just want a top-notch solid state preamp that will give me whatever brilliance and clarity my KSM44 is able to capture. I also don't think I'd be into a DIY kit, just can't be bothered with the hassle (plus I like resale value).

z15 · Post by **z15** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:40 pm

My only worry here is having to be particularly careful when gain staging my input whereas if I had a hardware comp/limiter I could relax a bit in that respect.

That's why I suggest recording in 24 bit. Set the biggest normal peaks to hit like -12dB or -15dB or whatever in recording - you'll have boatload of room before you get clipping and you still have more dynamics than you'll probably ever need, the noise floor is far away.

I really don't want any gear that's going to color my sound and I'm not one of those tube nuts who swears by the "warmth" (aka: distortion) of tube gear. I just want a top-notch solid state preamp that will give me whatever brilliance and clarity my KSM44 is able to capture.

If you really want insanely transparent preamp, check Millenia Media's HV-3C stereo pre or TD-1 twin topology channel. They're probably overkill though, and both close to that 2k dollar mark. The FMR audio RNP or the Safesound P1 have got very favourable reviews as far as somewhat cheaper "clean" options go, haven't heard them myself.

Probably the most pure mic pre I've heard was a tube design though, but a DIY one and not a commercial one. I'm trying to get my friend to show me the ropes with tube & high voltage electronics and build one at some point. Anyway, proves that t00bs aren't good just for that distortion I reckon.

FWIW like some of the other posters, I don't think you should go for the Joemeek & cheap Focusrite area either - they can be pretty good tools but not really that awesome compared to most of the other options given. And probably nowhere near "transparent" and "accurate".

Compressors, Preamps, and Getting Vocals into the DAW