Another good book on composition?

[arturito]

Z, Arturito, and anyone teaching themselves counterpoint --

Any CD recommendations? Outside of of Bach, I don't have much pre-20th century stuff, and really nothing at all from the specific period that species counterpoint conventions derive from.

anything in particular you'd recommend? I just ordered a Palestrina disc, when that arrives it'll be my entire post-chant pre-Baroque collection -- y'know, I think I should probably expand that a bit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlande_de_Lassus

Lassus is a bit more 'free' than Palestrina. He also used poems (not religius) to make music on..

[Z1202]

... and really nothing at all from the specific period that species counterpoint conventions derive from.

Frankly speaking I'm not too much into that subject. I just forced myself a while ago to buy a Palestrina CD, with the same purpose of getting familiar with that area. However, I tend to share the point of view expressed in Salzer and Schachter, that Fux' principles are much more general than restricted to the style of Palestrina. You find essentially the same principles in music of classical period with only some stylistic differences (a more free treatment of skips and dissonances). Besides AFAIR, Fux (at least in the counterpoint book) doesn't pay attention to the shape and quality of the melody as such. I think this is a very important subject, which you are going to miss, if you stick with Fux.

Regards,
{Z}

[StudioDave]

Here are a couple interesting books: "Simple Composition" - Charles Wuorinen

Recommended, but perhaps some acquaintance with Babbitt's work would help before getting into Wuorinen.

"Musical Composition" - Reginald Smith Brindle

Do you mean his "Serial Composition" ? I still use it as a prod when my mind just won't move...

"The Craft of Musical Composition vol 1 and 2" - Paul Hindemith

Oh lordy, not this one again.

Actually, Hindemith's pedagogy was sound and useful, but I think the Schoenberg "Fundamentals" is still the best of the bunch.

Of course you can always get the ever controversial Schillinger books.

Truly idiosyncratic ideation and presentation, but it's worked for many composers.

I would also recommend Vincent Persichetti's "20th Century Harmony". I once sequenced every example in that book, just to bone up on the topic.

It appears we share similar backgrounds. You didn't happen to study at CalArts ?

Other recommendations:

Modus Novus and Modus Vetus (advanced ear-training)

Instrumentation/Orchestration, by Alfred Blatter

Music Notation, by Gardner Read

all technical writing by Schoenberg and Berg

Kennan's Counterpoint (best intro to harmonic counterpoint, IMO)

any technical writing by Boulez, Elliott Carter, Stefan Wolpe, et al.

And no such list is complete without mention of Slonimsky's "Lexicon Of Musical Invective" and Schickele's biography of P.D.Q. Bach.

[Dewdman42]

"Musical Composition" - Reginald Smith Brindle

Do you mean his "Serial Composition" ? I still use it as a prod when my mind just won't move...

No, Brindle has another book called "Musical Composition" which is a little more general and not so focused on serialism.

"The Craft of Musical Composition vol 1 and 2" - Paul Hindemith

Oh lordy, not this one again.

Well admittedly I haven't read it yet, I only just recently managed to get my hands on a copy. But I read some good reviews about it and looking forward to reading it.

I would also recommend Vincent Persichetti's "20th Century Harmony".

I almost suggested this book also, but I was trying to avoid getting to books that are too overly modern since the original poster did not neccessarily ask for such. It is definitely a great book though, for 20th century techniques.

It appears we share similar backgrounds. You didn't happen to study at CalArts ?

Nope. Mostly self taught here, and private instruction.

[arturito]

[

You didn't happen to study at CalArts ?

studiodave, i was wondering where the 'CalArts' is based?


Btw very interesting material y'all talking about

[beboop]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlande_de_Lassus

Lassus is a bit more 'free' than Palestrina. He also used poems (not religius) to make music on..

yeah, I'm particularly interested in hearing some secular stuff too. Also I see that Lassus had a "brief chromatic period" which sounds intriguing -- be interesting to compare with Palestrina. Thanks!

[beboop]

...I tend to share the point of view expressed in Salzer and Schachter, that Fux' principles are much more general than restricted to the style of Palestrina. You find essentially the same principles in music of classical period with only some stylistic differences...

Right, presumably that's why Fux is still widely available after nearly three centuries.

But it seems a mistake to ignore the specific music from which those principles derive. To internalize those principles adequately will take a lot of listening, reading scores, transcribing, composing -- all of which is more simply and directly done from simpler, more direct music. And to see the link clearly between early polyphonic practice and classical voice leading, it seems a mistake to neglect early polyphony.

and yeah, I admit early music has never appealed to me much either -- but I'd expect that to change as I learn more about it.

thanks for the insights on Salzer and Schacter -- I do plan to look at S&S at some point, Kennan looks interesting too. Right now, though, my plate is more than full. And hey, I feel pretty confident no one was ever permanently damaged by using Fux as an introduction to counterpoint.

[Z1202]

But it seems a mistake to ignore the specific music from which those principles derive. To internalize those principles adequately will take a lot of listening, reading scores, transcribing, composing -- all of which is more simply and directly done from simpler, more direct music. And to see the link clearly between early polyphonic practice and classical voice leading, it seems a mistake to neglect early polyphony.

I think your point of view is completely valid. But then maybe you should look at other books which deal with 16th century counterpoint in some more detail than Fux'. E.g. Jeppesen is good and inexpensive IMHO. Some other books are available as well.

Regards,
{Z}

[Z1202]

"The Craft of Musical Composition vol 1 and 2" - Paul Hindemith

Actually I happen to have it (I guess you mean vol.1-3), but I don't dare to really work through it until I finish "A New Approach to Sightsinging", and probably Hindemith's "Elementary Training" as well

Regards,
{Z}

[StudioDave]

Mostly self taught here, and private instruction.

Same here. I took two years private instruction from Michael Jon Fink and I continued with self-studies. At that time Mike was a graduate assistant at CalArts, he's on staff now. He's a great teacher, we covered harmony, counterpoint, ear-training, and analysis using the same materials used at CalArts. I loved every lesson I took from him.

[StudioDave]

studiodave, i was wondering where the 'CalArts' is based?

California Institute of the Arts, a.k.a. CalArts, a.k.a. CIA, is located outside of Valencia, north of Los Angeles.

Btw very interesting material y'all talking about

Yes, it is. I realize it's a bit heavy, but it's all worthwhile stuff.

[Z1202]

Btw very interesting material y'all talking about

Yes, it is. I realize it's a bit heavy, but it's all worthwhile stuff.

Yes, thanks a lot for recommendations.

Regards,
{Z}

[herodotus]

Here are a couple interesting books: "Simple Composition" - Charles Wuorinen

Recommended, but perhaps some acquaintance with Babbitt's work would help before getting into Wuorinen.

Just out of curiosity, why?

"The Craft of Musical Composition vol 1 and 2" - Paul Hindemith

Oh lordy, not this one again.

Yes. I prefer Schoenberg as well. Those particular Hindemith books are horribly tendentious. Of Hindemith's books, I much prefer the little 'Traditional Harmony'books. Just exercises, without the questionable aesthetic pronouncements.

And while we are discussing Arnold, has anyone mentioned his Structural functions of Harmony?

Of course you can always get the ever controversial Schillinger books.

Truly idiosyncratic ideation and presentation, but it's worked for many composers.

Eek!

Save us all from these gimmicky 'systems' with overpriced 'packages' of materials.

any technical writing by Boulez, Elliott Carter, Stefan Wolpe, et al.

Later (post IRCAM) Boulez writings have merit, but some of his polemics from the Darmstadt days are completely full of shit.

But the Boosey and Hawkes score of Bartok's 5th string quartet has a really good analysis by Ligeti from the same era that is quite informative. Although he doesn't appear to understand humor.

Two more books that are much more useful than they might seem to be:

John Rahn's Basic Atonal Theory.

And The Music of Bela Bartok by Elliot Antokoletz.

Both books cover material that is discussed in the 'Equal interval system' (another overpriced 'system' with 'packages'
of materials), and also, in a less scientific way, by Messiaen.

[Riverrat]

I too looking for information on counter point,but what got me started was Jerry Mullgan jazz. Chet Baker, on trumpet, and Jerry on bari sax put a new sound in music, but this was in the 50's and 60's. No chord instrument was used in that group, you might want to check it out and draw your own thought's.

[nuffink]

I too looking for information on counter point

Here's a primer... http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/personn ... index.html