Why do I feel uncomfortable doing something else than 4/4?

[daverich]

we have a track that's in 18/4 - kinda 3 lots of 5/8 and then a 3/4 at the end.

www.lemonrock.com/daverichband

you can stream it hi-fi for free there, it's called Making me wings.

Kind regards

Dave Rich

[Lost_Highway]

@ OP: I love your clip, it doesn't sound at all forced, very natural To me, it conjures up 80s US TV show theme tunes like Airwolf and Knight Rider themes for some reason (and I don't mean that in a bad way)

Anyway, despite being into prog and learning three instruments as a child, I was hopeless at working out odd time signatures until I came across this link, it might even have been someone here at KVR who posted it :http://www.guitar9.com/columnist353.html. Thank you, whoever you are

It was like a revelation, especially when within minutes I'd figured out that Camel's Lost And Found from Rajaz was in 7/8. I've never looked back - it really helps me feel the time in a way that just counting 1 through 5, or 1 through 7 or whatever never did.

So if you ever hear strange people wandering around muttering under their breath about galloping apples, you know why

[blatanville]

@ OP: I love your clip, it doesn't sound at all forced, very natural To me, it conjures up 80s US TV show theme tunes like Airwolf and Knight Rider themes for some reason (and I don't mean that in a bad way)

Anyway, despite being into prog and learning three instruments as a child, I was hopeless at working out odd time signatures until I came across this link, it might even have been someone here at KVR who posted it :http://www.guitar9.com/columnist353.html. Thank you, whoever you are

It was like a revelation, especially when within minutes I'd figured out that Camel's Lost And Found from Rajaz was in 7/8. I've never looked back - it really helps me feel the time in a way that just counting 1 through 5, or 1 through 7 or whatever never did.

So if you ever hear strange people wandering around muttering under their breath about galloping apples, you know why

and THANK YOU!
though not exactly the "grid" I was seeking, this is certainly more portable!

[Lost_Highway]

and THANK YOU!
though not exactly the "grid" I was seeking, this is certainly more portable!

Wow, I can't believe I've managed to pass on information that was useful to someone on KVR. I can die happy now

Your point about musical training was why I mentioned about having learnt three instruments (badly) as a child. It was classical training and counting was instilled in me and came naturally. But I don't ever remember being exposed to anything other than 2/4, 3/4, 4/4 or 6/8 and even if I had been, I would have sat there trying to count lumpenly up to 5 or 7 or whatever and it would have been difficult, with no real feel for the rhythm.

The tips in the article that I linked to gave me a way to feel those sorts of meters. It's the same as xoxos and Voidoid were saying, but substituting words for numbers, which might be a bit easier to say quickly in your head and without getting confused (which is all too easy for me ).

I remember hearing someone say once that their trick for counting 7/8 was the name of the actress Gina Lollabrigida, but that only works for a 2+2+3 7/8 and could be really tricky to do fast!

As I think you were suggesting when you said it was portable, the galloping apples type thing is modular and can be built up in different groupings of twos and threes - I've used it to create an idea in 13/8. I found that ages ago I'd accidentally written a riff in 18/8, although it is probably more correctly an alternating 4/4 and 10/8 or something, but I can throw it around a bit by changing the accenting from 2+2+2+2 to 3+3+2 and so on. And I don't mind, because I like prog and it doesn't make me vomit

[Meffy]

Re: Gina Lollabrigida: On the BBC quiz show "My Music," one of the two quasi-serious contestants (Ian Wallace or John Amis, I forget which) explained that one way to count in 5/4 time was to repeat "RIM-sky KOR-sa-kov RIM-sky KOR-sa-kov..." but when the other musicologist on the panel tried, he kept adding a rest, making it an oddly accented 6/8 instead. :-D

[Chris Walton]

@ OP: I love your clip, it doesn't sound at all forced, very natural To me, it conjures up 80s US TV show theme tunes like Airwolf and Knight Rider themes for some reason (and I don't mean that in a bad way)

Thanks.

Anyway, despite being into prog and learning three instruments as a child, I was hopeless at working out odd time signatures until I came across this link, it might even have been someone here at KVR who posted it :http://www.guitar9.com/columnist353.html. Thank you, whoever you are

It was like a revelation, especially when within minutes I'd figured out that Camel's Lost And Found from Rajaz was in 7/8. I've never looked back - it really helps me feel the time in a way that just counting 1 through 5, or 1 through 7 or whatever never did.

So if you ever hear strange people wandering around muttering under their breath about galloping apples, you know why

Thanks for the link, reading through it now

[VicDiesel]

Re: Gina Lollabrigida: On the BBC quiz show "My Music," one of the two quasi-serious contestants (Ian Wallace or John Amis, I forget which) explained that one way to count in 5/4 time was to repeat "RIM-sky KOR-sa-kov RIM-sky KOR-sa-kov..." but when the other musicologist on the panel tried, he kept adding a rest, making it an oddly accented 6/8 instead.

That's the story of Slonimsky being assistant conductor to Koussevitsky. At one point Nicky had to tell the maestro that "one-two-three-four-five-six-se-ven" is not the way to count it.

Victor.

[Lost_Highway]

Ian Wallace or John Amis, I forget which

Was that the Ian Wallace, the late Crimso drummer?

Ah, no... Wikipedia is my friend, "Ian Wallace - singer and contestant on My Music" rather than Ian Russell Wallace.

he kept adding a rest, making it an oddly accented 6/8 instead

I've heard of a similar thing with a piece of choral music that is popular with amateur choirs - I forget what it is as I'm not into that sort of thing. Whatever it is, it's in either 7/4 or 7/8 and the more amateur ones end up counting 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-breathe, so it ends up in 4/4

[Meffy]

@Vic and Lost: Heee...

[james0tucson]

I've heard of a similar thing with a piece of choral music that is popular with amateur choirs - I forget what it is as I'm not into that sort of thing. Whatever it is, it's in either 7/4 or 7/8 and the more amateur ones end up counting 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-breathe, so it ends up in 4/4

I'm in a group that does this every winter:


KVR does NOT like this ugly URL.

Code: Select all

[url]http://stjosephcommunitychorus.com/St.%20Joseph%20Community%20Chirus%20fall%2006/Songs%20of%20the%20Season/22/Deck%20the%20Halls%20(In%207-8).htm[/url]

google for
deck the halls mckelvy stjoseph

[Lost_Highway]

I was hopeless at working out odd time signatures until I came across this link, it might even have been someone here at KVR who posted it :http://www.guitar9.com/columnist353.html. Thank you, whoever you are

It was Voidoid Surrealist, in the Production Techniques forum, in 2005, with a post part way down the last page http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1127408.

Cheers

[Voidoid Surrealist]

I was hopeless at working out odd time signatures until I came across this link, it might even have been someone here at KVR who posted it :http://www.guitar9.com/columnist353.html. Thank you, whoever you are

It was Voidoid Surrealist, in the Production Techniques forum, in 2005, with a post part way down the last page http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1127408.

Cheers

Awesome, I was wondering where the hell I posted that.
Now, if you can find the list of links to traditional Balkan folk mp3s and their respective meters that I posted in another thread time signitures, I won't have to do any work here.

[PERV]

the 4/4 rhythm is the most hypnotic, repetitive pattern which makes it predictable and easy to follow. for that reason you don't have to 'listen' to it to try and work it out, you just have to 'hear' it and your brain already knows what is going on (i.e. its symmetrical - easy to understand)

its in human nature to make things simple, like instructions - the more simple it is, the more people will understand it.

its the preferred format.

[StudioDave]

the 4/4 rhythm is the most hypnotic, repetitive pattern which makes it predictable and easy to follow. for that reason you don't have to 'listen' to it to try and work it out, you just have to 'hear' it and your brain already knows what is going on (i.e. its symmetrical - easy to understand)

By that reasoning 1/1 would be the "preferred format".

It's easy to overlook the fact that musical tastes and preferences are cultural, i.e. they are learned, you are not born with a preference for any particular scale or meter. We may indeed have inherent responses to music generally, but a person born in a musical Indian family will wonder why you don't have a preference for a complex tala that sounds perfectly "predictable" to him.

its in human nature to make things simple, like instructions - the more simple it is, the more people will understand it.

Have you ever lived with a woman ?

its the preferred format.

That's your personal musical culture speaking. I'm not knocking it, I'm just pointing out that our musical preferences are not "natural" or born with us in some other fashion.

The original poster might do well to ask himself: How much music have I listened to in my life that *wasn't* in 4/4 time ? If that's what we're raised with, that's what we will most "naturally" respond to (and will gravitate towards in our own work).

[beboop]

well, I have a theory about this: the reason western music has never fully embraced the complex compound meters found elsewhere is because we have really crappy counting syllables.

The best syllables I've found are the Indian ones (this is an insanely deep and complex subject about which I know just enough to post the following -- however, even this little bit I've found incredibly useful).

Group of two: ta ka
Group of three: ta ka ta
Group of four: ta ka di mi

so, to count seven, say TA ka di mi TA ka ta
or, another groove in seven: TA ka ta TA ka di mi

OK, now count seven the way I was originally taught: say "university color". The problem with that is (as with other rhythmic mnemonics based on ordinary words), words have their own natural stresses, and syllables are not always of equal time value -- unless you already know how the rhythm feels, you can't speak the mnemonic correctly.

The Indian syllables also work great for ordinary common time rhythms. Take the ubiquitous clave rhythm, otherwise known as the Bo Diddley beat. (just the first bar so I don't have to type as much)

Standard English counting syllables: ONE and two AND three and FOUR and
Indian syllables. TA ka ta TA ka ta TA ka

Which feels better? no contest.

There's a great book of exercises based on the Indian counting system, "You Can Ta Ka Di Mi This" by Tod Isler -- also there's a new John McLaughlin DVD out on it which I haven't seen, should be pretty good though.