KVR Audio

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:09 pm

_oswald wrote: You're also missing the point of 'making something potentially usable'.

no i dont think he is. but i think you're missing the point of circuit bending. its a no-skill-required endeavour.

If you go into it with absolutely no precaution and intend (note: I didn't say 'reasonably expect', there's a large difference) to fry the 'board, then you're not doing it for circuit bending purposes.

true. but irrelevant.

You're merely ripping open electronics and aimlessly screwing with their innards.

no, thats circuit bending, not 'intending to fry the board'.

However, understanding resistance should not be viewed as something 'too brainy' for 'bending any more so than 'brakes' should be understood as 'common sense' for an automobile.

in circuit-bending 'adding a variable resistor' = 'adding a control'. Thats all you need to know about it.

Or are you such a l33t circuit bender now, that you think none of those amatuers who know nothing should be playing in your territory?

To continue the car analogy, if I were to advocate making changes to my engine - I'd be an automobile technician. But knowing to shut the engine off and wear gloves before I even consider changing my oil wouldn't make me one.

The car analogy sucks; changing anything randomly in the automative mechanics will likely render it useless.

Lets have one that makes sense, like modular synths. Even if you dont know grok 'the basics' of synthesis, you can patch stuff up on a modular synth and get interesting sounds. You dont actually need to know what a CEM 3340 is to use one. Circuit bending is just doing the same thing, except the 'modules' are very strange indeed. What intel is saying is that it doesnt matter if you dont comprehend the modules. What you're saying is 'dont touch the modular unless you know what you're doing'.

Everything Ive ever read by circuit benders contradicts your stance and supports intel's. That includes Ghazala, btw, including his original articles on circuit bending in Experimental Musical Instruments.

_oswald · Post by **_oswald** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:03 pm

whyterabbyt wrote: in circuit-bending 'adding a variable resistor' = 'adding a control'. Thats all you need to know about it.

Or are you such a l33t circuit bender now, that you think none of those amatuers who know nothing should be playing in your territory?

Hell no, everyone should try it. It's just that if I were to sit down with a pal and try to tell them what I know or find useful, I'd definitely mention 'resistance' as one a top bit of information and as such, I think the article is completely lacking in explaining and education on one of the most basic tools of 'bending.

If you read Reed's book, get to the point about the 'variable resistance wheel' and tell me that he understates it's usefulness to a 'bend.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:07 pm

_oswald wrote: Hell no, everyone should try it. It's just that if I were to sit down with a pal and try to tell them what I know or find useful, I'd definitely mention 'resistance' as one a top bit of information and as such

and i'd explain 'one of these knobs can gives you variable effects' and let them get on with it. I wouldnt say 'learn and understand resistance unless all you're interested in doing is crashing the circuit'.

I think the article is completely lacking in explaining and education on one of the most basic tools of 'bending.

Then you should have posted Peter a better one, shouldnt you? Instead of bitching about the shortcomings of something done by someone who at least made some kind of positive contribution to the proceedings.

If you read Reed's book, get to the point about the 'variable resistance wheel' and tell me that he understates it's usefulness to a 'bend.

Usefulness != 'f**king vital to a bend'. Try and stay consistent, will you.

Jeebus. Someone does something to get folk up off their arses and trying something new, someone else throws in some advice for folk, and what's the result - griping and whining about how the thing should have been done, and how the advice isnt good enough. Sheesh. How much of a curmudgeonly git do you have to be to manage to express umbrage at every aspect of the entire f**king thing.

_oswald · Post by **_oswald** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:36 pm

I fail to see how I'm being a git by stating my dislike of the article and as I've already stated my reasons repeatedly, I'm not going to discuss this matter any further.

kenn · Post by **kenn** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:56 pm

What is it with today? All the threads I visited here are bitchy.

Enough, already.

Back on topic, I dug into my electronics treasure-chest and came up with two goodies - a mint Waveblaster II board, and a Turtle Beach Rio (also Waveblaster-compatible), and I'm gonna wire'em up as stand-alone MIDI modules.

That part is straightforward - +5, +/-12 supply, capacitor + resistor pullup on reset line, MIDI opto-coupled input - but does anyone know any bends or hacks for Waveblaster cards?

Thanks for any input.

(and stop fighting fer crissakes. Take it offline)

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:40 am

well, i didnt do anything 'in a day' for the event itself, but it was impetus enough to start something; ive now got two kids voice changers in bits, pending daisy-chaining them with some extra twists. basically they're both nothing more than 'black dot' chips on a tiny carrier board with some resistors and caps for timing, and (i think) an amp of some kind for the speaker, but Im sure replacing some of those resistors with knobs will give me some more variation that the basic switches offered, whether or not I have a degree in resistances.
I think Im also going to try something a little more 'electromechanical' than pure bending - feeding back the output from one of the board's speaker via the other board's mic input.
anyways, it'll give me summat to do in the evenings now that the clocks going back has destroyed any possibility of seeing daylight after I get home.

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:37 pm

before you tell him his analogy sucks, you need to realize that you're completely wrong. try patching a modular synth with 100% random connections and depths. the result will always be random, detuned noise with uncontrollable dynamics and often harsh pulses from gates and modulators connected into the audio path. the odds of getting a patch with merely stable tuning and proper keyboard tracking are extremely low for any reasonably sized system.

with regard to 'circuit bending' however, you need to know the basics of electronics before you do anything - otherwise you're not 'circuit' anything, you're merely f**king around. merely f**king around may be your definition of 'circuit bending', but in such a case you can reasonably also use the term 'f**king around' or 'shorting stuff out at completely random while inserting components with absolutely no purpose' to describe the same thing.

"'black dot' chips", these are called dies. well, you're better to just refer to it as a glob of paste. it could be a die, or it could be bga or smd under a glob. it might be multiple discrete components under a glob. no way to tell.

the voice modulators are generally a combination of jfet preamp, oscillator, ota and output buffer. they're connected as two-quadrant multipliers controlled by the oscillator yielding AM of the input signal. the capacitor and resistors make up the oscillator's integrator and feedback network. the oscillator is probably a single opamp oscillator. the output buffer is probably the external bit and it should either be a smd opamp combined with some transistors, or just some transistors. they may use single chips ready-made with all these features like the am-modulator chips used in basic transmitters.

you should be able to change three things:

1) frequency of the oscillator
2) depth of modulation
3) amplitude of input and output signals

in order to get 1 & 2 independently you'll need some fair knowledge of electronics. otherwise you'll get a combination of probably all three by inserting a variable-anything between any of those components.

if the ota is connected with it's output going directly out of the die-in-paste, you can turn the thing into a filter with the oscillator acting as an lfo. unfortunately you will not be able to get anything useful using global feedback.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:56 pm

aciddose wrote:before you tell him his analogy sucks, you need to realize that you're completely wrong.

No, thats not the correct process at all. his analogy sucks because of factors completely unrelated to my 'realisation' of anything.

the fact that Im not wrong, is just you looking for a fight again. You really should be banned from here for just following me around looking to cause an argument. its all you ever do.

But go ahead, quote well known and established circuit benders and their statements on the matter if you want to try and maintain some credibility on this one.

try patching a modular synth with 100% random connections and depths. the result will always be random, detuned noise with uncontrollable dynamics and often harsh pulses from gates and modulators connected into the audio path.

sounds good. just like circuit bent stuff, in fact.

by the way, i said nothing about '100% random connections and depths', so thats another strawman argument.

the odds of getting a patch with merely stable tuning and proper keyboard tracking are extremely low for any reasonably sized system.

so? circuit bending has nothing to do with stable tuning or keyboard tracking.

with regard to 'circuit bending' however, you need to know the basics of electronics before you do anything

The guy who invented the term says differently.

Reed Ghazala wrote:If you learn to solder and can drill a small hole to mount a switch in, you can circuit-bend. Everything else is a process of non-technical, routine experimentation in which various short-circuits are created in an attempt to alter the target device's audio behavior.

- otherwise you're not 'circuit' anything, you're merely f**king around. merely f**king around may be your definition of 'circuit bending', but in such a case you can reasonably also use the term 'f**king around' or 'shorting stuff out at completely random while inserting components with absolutely no purpose' to describe the same thing.

yes you could. luckily there's a shorter term for that process. its called 'circuit bending'. its not my definition, though; Im using the one by the guy who invented the term. You can take it up with him as to whether he's got it right.

EDIT : responding to the bits aciddope added afterwards, in the usual write-post-rewrite stylee.

"'black dot' chips", these are called dies. well, you're better to just refer to it as a glob of paste. it could be a die, or it could be bga or smd under a glob. blahblahblahblahanalwibbleblahaalblahotawankfestgibbertosspotmonkeysmearblah

frankly my dear, i dont give a damn. get your own voicechangers, i have zero interest in your thoughts on mine.

intel · Post by **intel** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:34 pm

aciddose wrote:'shorting stuff out at completely random while inserting components with absolutely no purpose'

And that, silly thing, is the one and only goal of circuit bending.

Anything beyond that is modding or engineering. To circuit bend, all you need is wet fingers. Sorry I don't know my cathode from my op amp, but you're wrong in your assessment of what is and what is not circuit bending.

Audio~Geek · Post by **Audio~Geek** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:03 pm

If anyone is interested in a sample collection
I've just released one for just $5
find out more on my site

Audio~Geek · Post by **Audio~Geek** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:53 am

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

_oswald · Post by **_oswald** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:27 am

Audio~Geek wrote:http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

Thanks for the heads up - I'll prowl your gallery later.

I'm working on bending a small army of voice changing toys. So far, I've found that Steve Martin's "A Wild and Crazy Guy" album is great when ran through all kinds of garbage.

spacedad · Post by **spacedad** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:50 pm

i read that if you put a capacitor before the output jack it stops high frequencies,but i don't know where exactly,i'm connecting the + - from speaker to the jack-out.can any one help?
also,is this a good book? 'Circuit-Bending: Build Your Own Alien Instruments',i noticed it's u.s. based,would it still be useful for a pommy?

Audio~Geek · Post by **Audio~Geek** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:23 pm

spacedad wrote:i read that if you put a capacitor before the output jack it stops high frequencies,but i don't know where exactly,i'm connecting the + - from speaker to the jack-out.can any one help?
also,is this a good book? 'Circuit-Bending: Build Your Own Alien Instruments',i noticed it's u.s. based,would it still be useful for a pommy?

That book was written by Reed Ghazala, who (arguably) started circuit bending. That book also started the decline of coolness of circuit bending for me. I haven't read it, I've read other things from him and couldn't stand the guy. Too "far out man".
Just my opinion.

spacedad · Post by **spacedad** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:50 pm

fair enough,i was just looking for a book with some basics to help me out.thanks for the feedback.
still anyone know where to put the cap before the output?

CIRCUIT BENDING ... Mini forum in a single thread !!!