Why do I feel uncomfortable doing something else than 4/4?

[nuffink]

well, I have a theory about this: the reason western music has never fully embraced the complex compound meters found elsewhere is because we have really crappy counting syllables.

The best syllables I've found are the Indian ones (this is insanely deep and complex subject about which I know just enough to post the following -- however, even this little bit I've found incredibly useful).

Group of two: ta ka
Group of three: ta ka ta
Group of four: ta ka di mi

so, to count seven, say TA ka di mi TA ka ta
or, another groove in seven: TA ka ta TA ka di mi

OK, now count seven the way I was originally taught: say "university color". The problem with that is (as with other rhythmic mnemonics based on ordinary words), words have their own natural stresses, and syllables are not always of equal time value -- unless you already know how the rhythm feels, you can't speak the mnemonic correctly.

The Indian syllables also work great for ordinary common time rhythms. Take the ubiquitous clave rhythm, otherwise known as the Bo Diddley beat. (just the first bar so I don't have to type as much)

Standard English counting syllables: ONE and two AND three and FOUR and
Indian syllables. TA ka ta TA ka ta TA ka

Which feels better? no contest.

There's a great book of exercises based on the Indian counting system, "You Can Ta Ka Di Mi This" by Tod Isler -- also there's a new John McLaughlin DVD out on it which I haven't seen, should be pretty good though.

Nice post. There's a bit more info here... http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory20.htm#rsyllables

[tonAP]

Yeah! Then there are a lot of variants eg Tablas patterns like: Da Ti Re Ki Te Da. They count tapping The thumb over each falange (so 3 per finger) from the Index to the little finger so 3x4=12/8.
The Gitans (Bulerias) count the more crazy 12/8 I've never heard: 2 groups of 3 then 3 groups of 2... BUT accents are on number 3,6,8,10,12!!! So it would be:
ti-re ki-te DA- ti-re ki-te DA- ki-te DA- ki-te DA- [ki-te] DA-
Where last [ki-te] is often silence..for a more crazy pattern!
Then they go with triplets Kinda:
ti-ki-re ti-ki-re DA- ti-ki-re ti-ki-re DA- ti-ki-re DA- ti-ki-re DA- [---] DA

Crazy!!!

[xoxos]

tal concept is a BIG part of my next phase of development.. one region i need to dev concept for is populating a segment.. eg. 3 + 3 + 2.. what goes on the 2nd and 3rd beats of the 3s and the 2nd count of the 2.. translating these into timbral events..

atm i'm relying on my own meagre/massive conception/sensibilities and compounding multiple systems.. if there's any developed thinking or practice on this i could hear about it

[jancivil]

So, why is it that 4/4 music is so common? Why is it difficult for me (and probably some others) to conceive something other than 4/4?

The human brain likes things to be simple and symmetrical.

<----Why is this post inside a rectangle and not a circle, triangle or cloud shape?---->

NO. The human brain does like things to be simple, but it is not anything like a requirement, which is your implication. I must challenge the idea that 4/4 is necessarily the simplest path. In some cultures on some planets, this is the cultural and historical norm, for a whole lot of reasons. I can ASSURE you this isn't the case world wide; EG: Bela Bartok's music was based, its fundamental impulse was all about the music of the Hungarian Peasant, and the time changes all over the place, you can look up his sources and find exemplars of the same activity today, there, they weren't really feeling a whole lot of 4/4; with the spread of culture that's happened since, that would have changed some, but it's not the basic all the time, default beat. This is but ONE example.

Making any anology with text on a page is absurd, this post is inside a rectangle because it fits with the conventional way we have learned to fit text on a page, now a screen.

What in the world does this have to do with rhythm? I'll answer that for you. Not one single thing.

I'm going to stretch a little bit, and suggest that 4/4 as de rigeur globally, getting you peoples entrained to that, definitely gets you marching in time to fight for resources that are going to become scarce, sooner not later.

4/4 for Standard Oil!

HUP TWO THREE FOUR

BOOM BOOM BAP, ba
BOMM BOMM CRACK /

[jancivil]

tal concept is a BIG part of my next phase of development.. one region i need to dev concept for is populating a segment.. eg. 3 + 3 + 2.. what goes on the 2nd and 3rd beats of the 3s and the 2nd count of the 2.. translating these into timbral events..

speaking of cultures on a planet: the default beat in what is called Hindustani music is called TINTAL, it's 16 beats. Now, that often does mean 4x4. It often means things like 6 + 4 + 6, and there might be some cool accents/emphases along that path. Everyone in the audience can keep tal too, though that's changing too: Globalisation.

Fight the pipe and pray for slack

jan

[xoxos]

Fight the pipe and pray for slack

jan

"get OUT and push"

[ouroboros]

harambe'

[jancivil]

Maybe because we just have two hands and two feet...

Yeah, that is one theory. Another one is that it's because our hearts beat in 4/4.
.

Uhm, how's that? that would mean, what, and accent on the one after four? how come there's no accent in mine? In fact, if I compare to a click track, I can't even set a definitive tempo to my beat at any given time.

We must have been constructed by a different factory, I can't find the click track.

What, it's 120 bpm too? Are you forced to speak in quantized eighths or sixteenths? Can you surgically get a groove template implant job?


I would NOT trust whomever convinced you your pulse is in 4/4.

[james0tucson]

"Pass the goddam butter!"

[Voidoid Surrealist]

or somethin like that. can't make up my mind on the accents.

[tonAP]

I can live with my arrhytmic-tachycardia

[Hovmod]

The two major Same towns in Finnmark, Karasjok and Kautokeino, are useful for 7/8.
Karasjok-Kautokeino-Karasjok-Kautokeino-Karasjok-Kautokeino for a 3+4 feel, and
Kautokeino-Karasjok-Kautokeino-Karasjok-Kautokeino-Karasjok for that 4+3 groove.

[jancivil]

[paveloso]

Maybe because we just have two hands and two feet...

Yeah, that is one theory. Another one is that it's because our hearts beat in 4/4.

Uhm, how's that? that would mean, what, and accent on the one after four? how come there's no accent in mine? In fact, if I compare to a click track, I can't even set a definitive tempo to my beat at any given time... What, it's 120 bpm too?...

No, that would mean it is a binary beat. There is a lot of music that's in 4/4 and does NOT have accent on the ONE of every beat. But you probably already know that as a musician.

You may be the only person I know who has actually tried to set a definite BPM to your heartbeat! ... Not to mention it would vary constantly, depending on a whole lot of different factors (mood, physical activity, internal processes - such as digestion, et al). Also, I really doubt there is a heart that has practiced against a click track in an attempt to achieve perfect time.

We must have been constructed by a different factory, I can't find the click track.

Keep looking, and good luck with that.

Are you forced to speak in quantized eighths or sixteenths? Can you surgically get a groove template implant job?

Speech is actually connected to the brain, not the heart...

I would NOT trust whomever convinced you your pulse is in 4/4.

I would NOT trust ANYONE who times his/her heartbeat to a click track!

[jancivil]

Maybe because we just have two hands and two feet...

Yeah, that is one theory. Another one is that it's because our hearts beat in 4/4.

Uhm, how's that? that would mean, what, and accent on the one after four? how come there's no accent in mine? In fact, if I compare to a click track, I can't even set a definitive tempo to my beat at any given time... What, it's 120 bpm too?...

No, that would mean it is a binary beat. There is a lot of music that's in 4/4 and does NOT have accent on the ONE of every beat. But you probably already know that as a musician.

You may be the only person I know who has actually tried to set a definite BPM to your heartbeat! ... Not to mention it would vary constantly, depending on a whole lot of different factors (mood, physical activity, internal processes - such as digestion, et al). Also, I really doubt there is a heart that has practiced against a click track in an attempt to achieve perfect time.

We must have been constructed by a different factory, I can't find the click track.

Keep looking, and good luck with that.

Are you forced to speak in quantized eighths or sixteenths? Can you surgically get a groove template implant job?

Speech is actually connected to the brain, not the heart...

I would NOT trust whomever convinced you your pulse is in 4/4.

I would NOT trust ANYONE who times his/her heartbeat to a click track!

Oh my. Was that all too dry a joke for yez?
(Or is this one too loud a one for me.)

You haven't shown me how 'the heart beats in 4/4'.
It's a little like showing me how 'we speak in C major', or whatever convention we are most comfortable with.

Let me explain: if I were to want to derive a 'beat' from my heart beat, I'd have to record it, import it into cubase and *WARP to audio*, which will tend to show a variety of tempi, once we're done.

The TIME SIGNATURE will tend to be determined according to what I am looking for, and how I set the parameters in detecting the beat.

What you did here was - according to my METAPHOR - just that, and you imposed 4/4 on it.

Binary, btw, is either/or, like ON/OFF. Up/Down strokes. L/R sticking as a drummer. The binary action of the heart pumping equals ONE of the beats we hear or feel, so it's in what: 1/1? 1/2? 1/4? what, exactly?

4/4 is four quarter note beats. I'm happy for you if you are comfortable with your statement, but I believe I have indicated how absurd it actually is.

fight the pipe and pray for slack

jc