Flesh And Bone - Production Diary

[Hink]

I wanna say thanx for all the time you put into this, there's a lot of good info in there. But it's a bit overwhelming and a lot to take in all at once. I surely keep coming back to this thread as time permits to continue with it, hence why I bumping it...so it won't get too buried.

[Kim Lajoie]

Thanks. With so few replies, it's a bit hard to tell how useful or valuable this is to others.

-Kim.

[annode]

Personally I think this is a demonstration of how one can be so meticulous in their preparations and still come out with a mediocre product.
I'm not trying to be funny or abusive, I really feel the end result quality is trashed. It's become a big mess.

If it wasn't for all the instruction text, i'd just pass this by.
I give you an "A" for effort though.

My feelings may also indicate why you haven't had more comments.
Or it could be that the text is overwhelming to comment on.

[stanlea]

I miss your precedent threads, and I just saw this one. I reply before to read carefully and listen the sounds, but first of all, thank you for the time you spent writing this. And it's not very fair firing this effort.

[Kim Lajoie]

Personally I think this is a demonstration of how one can be so meticulous in their preparations and still come out with a mediocre product.
I'm not trying to be funny or abusive, I really feel the end result quality is trashed. It's become a big mess.

Care to go into detail? Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but if there's some way I can improve I'd like to know how.

-Kim.

[annode]

Hi Kim.

I didn't read the day by day logs. I played the mixdown and the mastered single version.
Is there anything about the mastered final version you aren't satified with?
I'm trying to avoid having to go through it all day by day.
I'll be happy to run a dialog with you on this project...where do we start?
EDIT: I decided to go through your processes.
day3 - vocal pitch on each could have been better matched and intonated.They sound quite off with one another.

day4 - vocal pitch and harmony sound fine on this. The takes sound different or maybe another section of the song...vocals sound correct.
Backing,although well hidden behind the vocals at this time,also seem to sound as if they are recorded well.

day5 - assuming that the instruments have been recorded from mic to mono trks...they each sound like the life has been squashed out of them somehow.
You didn't write that you processed them in any way...but it sounds like you have them as a group trk through a limiter or hard knee compressor. I think I hear dynamics breathing.

The beginning/vocals sound like there is a good deal of noise behind it.

day6 - It's very clear where I am having my listening problem now. You love to use heavy compressor squashing. It does sound like the vst's are heavily overdriven and then squashed way down.
This is so severe, your other efforts in the mix are insignificant.
Do I smell a multi-band compressor?

day7 - drums get treatment.Drums are in small room/stereo but other sounds are not in a room and mono centered. I wouldn't do this...

day8 -
and on.

Before I read these pages, up to this point, I assumed they included more instruction on the processing end of the production, but now I see that's not the case.
I'm sorry Kim that I jumped to soon.
The song may have worked out well,but it's hard to say for sure since it's all so heavily squashed it's hard to hear some of the trks.
If this sound is what you like,you have done well at achieving it.
If you still have any questions for me, feel free to ask away.

EDIT2 - just listened to the "extended version".
Where did that mix come from haha. That one sounds much more balanced then what I heard before.

[Kim Lajoie]

Annode, thanks for going to the trouble of writing all that, it's certainly much more useful. Out of curiosity, do you have any of your music online? I'm not asking you to "prove yourself", I just want to get a sense of you taste in mixing.

Is there anything about the mastered final version you aren't satified with?

Not really. I'm quite happy with it at the moment. In retrospect, I would have liked to to only one version - the Extended version - with the loudness of the Single version. It hits commercial levels quite easily, and I don't think there's enough audio damage (for this kind of music) to warrant going any quieter.

day3 - vocal pitch on each could have been better matched and intonated.They sound quite off with one another.

day4 - vocal pitch and harmony sound fine on this. The takes sound different or maybe another section of the song...vocals sound correct.
Backing,although well hidden behind the vocals at this time,also seem to sound as if they are recorded well.

Yep, the vocals were a work in progress for the first few days. I don't think they're different takes - just further processing. By the way, there's no background vocals at this stage. Not sure what you're referring to.

day5 - assuming that the instruments have been recorded from mic to mono trks...they each sound like the life has been squashed out of them somehow.
You didn't write that you processed them in any way...but it sounds like you have them as a group trk through a limiter or hard knee compressor. I think I hear dynamics breathing.

day6 - It's very clear where I am having my listening problem now. You love to use heavy compressor squashing. It does sound like the vst's are heavily overdriven and then squashed way down.
This is so severe, your other efforts in the mix are insignificant.
Do I smell a multi-band compressor?

Oooh... I'll take all that as compliments! A few points:
- Only the vocals and the acoustic guitars were recorded with a microphone. Electric guitar and bass were direct in. Drums were from Sonic Reality's Studio Drum Capusule. All other sounds were from Sonik Synth 2.
- Almost all sounds are in mono at this stage. I prefer to work with mono sound sources (they take up less space, giving me more space to work with, allowing me to fit more sounds in). I also keep almost everything panned centre until right at the end.
- Not too many sounds are heavily compressed, but almost everything is saturated in some way. I know it's not to everyone's taste, but that's the sound I'm going for.
- No multiband compressors or limiters in sight (or sound). I can't stand the things! You can hear what damage I do with wideband compression!
- The only group bus I used was for the drum kit. That was only to add the drum room and a little bus compression (just to ride the kit, not so much to reduce the dynamic range).

The beginning/vocals sound like there is a good deal of noise behind it.

Indeed. That's a result of heavy de-essing, saturation, compression, and top boost. I don't really mind the noise - if it wasn't there I'd probably add it anyway. I like my sounds kinda filthy...

day7 - drums get treatment.Drums are in small room/stereo but other sounds are not in a room and mono centered. I wouldn't do this...

The drum room is just to give the kit a little more air and realism. I certainly don't want to put the whole mix in a room. Yuck!

Before I read these pages, up to this point, I assumed they included more instruction on the processing end of the production, but now I see that's not the case.

I could have written more about the processing of individual instruments, but the text would have been about three or four times the length! It's already far too long already to dump on people in one go. If you've got any specific questions though, I'm happy to answer them. I just don't want to spend hours writing the whole thing up for people to say "too long, didn't read".

The song may have worked out well,but it's hard to say for sure since it's all so heavily squashed it's hard to hear some of the trks.
If this sound is what you like,you have done well at achieving it.

Thanks! Really, this mix is not about clarity for all instruments. There's probably about thirty audio channels in there. Only a handful were ever going to be in the foreground. The lead vocal and snare are meant to be front and centre, with kick and bass slightly behind. Everything else is background texture.

There are actually plenty of really nice sounds tucked away back there that no-one will hear. The problem is, if I tried to make everything equally audible, the mix would be mush.

EDIT2 - just listened to the "extended version".
Where did that mix come from haha. That one sounds much more balanced then what I heard before.

It's the same mix! The two versions were split after the mix was complete. Their only difference is the edit (the Single version has a few sections cut) and the master (the Single version is full commercial level, the Extended version is 6dB behind).

-Kim.

[annode]

Hello Kim.

Sent you a PM with some music of mine.
- No time at the moment to respond to your last reply above.I'll come back.

[annode]

Sorry I took so long to respond.

To be fair, I want to say that the two outcomes showed creativity.
Personally i'd rather chew aluminum foil then listen to her sing.
Someone tell her there is already a famous singer who sings like that. Do we need another? If you ask me, we don't need the 1st one.

You have the singer well upfront in the mix giving me a real hard time listening to it.My taste again maybe.

I have no gripes about the smashing compression from GClip,is that it's name?
That's your style. To say it's harse is no overstatement.

Last thing...I really didn't understand your instructional/experiencial organization in your posts.
I thought you could have explained more with less wording. Maybe next time.

All and all I liked as much as I didn't like about the song and mix results.
To go on more about this is moot at this time, lets not beat a dead horse.

Out of curiosity, do you have any of your music online? I'm not asking you to "prove yourself", I just want to get a sense of you taste in mixing.

I assembled some of my music for you like you asked. Do you plan to respond to them? That would be nice if you would.

[Kim Lajoie]

I responded to your PM just now. Sorry about the wait. Thanks for taking the time to participate.

-Kim.

[huguesbc]

This whole process reminds me of the "mix rescue" series in Sound On Sound magazine. If you are not familiar with these articles, the idea is to process awful performances / recordings and attempt to bring them to something like a rough demo. In "mix rescue", original recordings have all sorts of phase cancellation, clipping, noise due to low recording levels and timing problems. And the rescuer does his best attempt to hide these problems with production tricks.

When I heard the first days mp3, I thought, oh my what a disaster, nothing good can come out of this. As the days passed by, clever tricks were used to fix the vocals. In the end I still can't stand the singer, but it definitely sounds like she is much better than day 1.

The whole mix had a grainy compressed feel to it. I thought it was a bit too much even if that was the original intention. It could have payed off to compress each track individually.

IMHO the bass tail sounds mushy, maybe because of effects processing, I would gate the bass to remove it and give the mix a better clarity. I would also narrow the bass frequency range with eq for the same reasons.

I feel there is not enough mids in the track too. I would bring the guitar and piano tracks brighter because it clashes with the bass. Drums are ok, but I agree it doesn't match too well with mono tracks.

What I found most interesting is the way you work with chords, it's a nice approach I would like to try myself.
Good post.

[xtp]

Hi Kim.

I like your song and I think Maxines vibe is cool.

I burned both versions onto cd and played it on my stereo.

some comments:

I thought the bass was not consistent in definition throughout the song, [it seems to fluctuate in intensity] and I felt a well defined bass behind the voice [esp driving in chorus] would add more punch. I liked the voice/snare partnership.

I liked the toms fill when it cut in but thought it could be slightly more developed maybe a few seconds longer to build the tension.

I compose in a similar fashion in that I improvise pieces and record them, and then fish out stuff i like after. Once I have arranged the piece I re-perform it and re-record it [once I have learned to play it]. Have you considered this as a second stage. To go back after the song is 'complete' and record maxines vocals as a take over the song and then muting the original you used to create the song.

I liked the opening part. Some Jazz stuff I listen to allows the room to be quite prominent in the recording, I thought Maxines vocals in the intro would actually lend themself to a more open recording, more breathy and roomy. [Singer, room, microphone]

My only other comment would be , opportunit - eeeeee is pronounced opportune-ni- Teeee

cheers for the song and commentary - Shaun.

[dark_virus]

Thanks for share your tips with us. I read it, and found very interesting, through this isn't my type of music!

Cheers!