I've never had to read a staff eversince i started making music, since all i deal with are piano rolls and keyboards.
But i want to expand my musical horizons so to speak, and it seems getting better at the keyboard is my best ticket...
I'm a pretty medicore player, and don't expect to become good on my own, so I intend to get lessons at some point, but i wanna get some of the basics down first, so i don't waste my money (have a few good ressources, dvds etc).
Anyway, my problem is, I have a hard time realizing how indering, this musical illetrism of mine, is going to be on this path (besides getting mocked by classically trained people i guess) ?
I know it's kind of easy for guitar players, with all the tablatures available etc, but what about keyboard players ?
Can one learn the piano without reading music ?
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- KVRAF
- 5110 posts since 5 May, 2005 from Stockholm, Sweden
I asked a similar question a few months back and came to the conclusion that it would be better in the long run to actually learn to read music..
Its not as difficult as you might think...and you can learn that and piano at the same time with a good course such as the E-media piano courses.. they have beginner and intermediate..
http://www.emediamusic.com/
Its not as difficult as you might think...and you can learn that and piano at the same time with a good course such as the E-media piano courses.. they have beginner and intermediate..
http://www.emediamusic.com/
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- KVRAF
- 11839 posts since 23 Nov, 2004 from west of east
I would think about the only people who could learn piano without reading music are those with an inherent ability to play by ear. I can't do either. Wish I did both. 
We escape the trap of our own subjectivity by
perceiving neither black nor white but shades of grey
perceiving neither black nor white but shades of grey
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- Banned
- 12367 posts since 30 Apr, 2002 from i might peeramid
.....american jazz masters anyone?? i seem to remember marian mcpartland for example being an ear player..
..she's been doing the 'piano jazz' on u.s. nat. public radio for ~30 years.. learned from ellington. well worth a listen.
..she's been doing the 'piano jazz' on u.s. nat. public radio for ~30 years.. learned from ellington. well worth a listen.
you come and go, you come and go. amitabha neither a follower nor a leader be tagore "where roads are made i lose my way" where there is certainty, consideration is absent.
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- KVRAF
- 2545 posts since 22 Jun, 2004 from Paris. Well, not far.
Download this pdf:
http://www.ravenspiral.com/ravenspiralguide.pdf
I must admit I haven't read everything but I think it must be just what you need.
Look at this thread for instance:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=154523
I think you should try and find yourself a teacher with a jazz education/bias rather than a classical one. The reason is that many classical teachers will focus on classical interpretation (i.e. reading from a score and playing the tune as well as possible), while jazz music teachers will more spontaneously combine interpretation, theory, composition and improv ( jazz being largely about improv, and you can't really improvise well without at least a smattering of theory).
The key is also to define precisely what you want and go to the teacher with your list of objectives. For intsance, if you want to learn about harmony as used in jazz, beware of a teacher who'll want to teach you how to play a chopin Nocturne before he even tells you how to build a 7th chord... If you want to learn about composition for pop music, insist that he/she teaches you that.
One of the first things you need to learn is what kinds of chords are used in jazz and pop music, when to use them and what scales to use on top of them. It is not that difficult.
Hope that didn't sound too peremptory
d
http://www.ravenspiral.com/ravenspiralguide.pdf
I must admit I haven't read everything but I think it must be just what you need.
Look at this thread for instance:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=154523
I think you should try and find yourself a teacher with a jazz education/bias rather than a classical one. The reason is that many classical teachers will focus on classical interpretation (i.e. reading from a score and playing the tune as well as possible), while jazz music teachers will more spontaneously combine interpretation, theory, composition and improv ( jazz being largely about improv, and you can't really improvise well without at least a smattering of theory).
The key is also to define precisely what you want and go to the teacher with your list of objectives. For intsance, if you want to learn about harmony as used in jazz, beware of a teacher who'll want to teach you how to play a chopin Nocturne before he even tells you how to build a 7th chord... If you want to learn about composition for pop music, insist that he/she teaches you that.
One of the first things you need to learn is what kinds of chords are used in jazz and pop music, when to use them and what scales to use on top of them. It is not that difficult.
Hope that didn't sound too peremptory
d
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- KVRist
- 275 posts since 10 Feb, 2006 from Finland
Try this: http://www.pianoisfun.com 
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- Banned
- 1842 posts since 4 Aug, 2004 from just right here
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- KVRAF
- 2545 posts since 22 Jun, 2004 from Paris. Well, not far.
Quite right, though not everyone can be THAT exceptional...Jafo wrote:Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles spring to mind.
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- Banned
- 4072 posts since 7 Nov, 2007
I think the skill of actually reading music is not paramount.
I can read music on a most basic level but still have to think about it a lot when I look at a piece of sheet music.
It's a nice skill. but, not the most important one. music is mostly about 1's ear, and 1 passion.
While, theory and sheet music are important... They are not the only aspects to doing something like playing piano.
I can read music on a most basic level but still have to think about it a lot when I look at a piece of sheet music.
It's a nice skill. but, not the most important one. music is mostly about 1's ear, and 1 passion.
While, theory and sheet music are important... They are not the only aspects to doing something like playing piano.
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- KVRAF
- 7540 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area
Since your goal is to improve your playing (and presumably theory) through piano lessons, you need to understand what those lessons entail. Typically, a piano teacher will give you sheet music to learn, and work through it with you, as well as sending you home with music theory worksheets for homework. That is what piano lessons entail. When selecting a teacher, you should discuss your objectives and current level of expertise, and try to find someone who is compatible with those objectives. However, if one of your stated objectives is to not learn to read staff notation, you may find yourself rather limited in choice of instructors. At least from my perspective, selecting a teacher solely on the basis of not learning notation is absurd. You might as well try to find a teacher who doesn't require you to learn the black notes! 
Learning to improve your skill on an instrument through formal lessons is all about dedication and hard work. You may see it as wasting your money to learn how to read music in lessons, but if you aren't willing to approach lessons with an open mind and a willingness to do what it takes, you are really just wasting the instructor's time.
Honestly, learning to read the basics of notation is pretty simple. Pick up just about any beginners book on the subject, practice hard, and you'll be sight-reading on a basic level in a week or two.
Learning to improve your skill on an instrument through formal lessons is all about dedication and hard work. You may see it as wasting your money to learn how to read music in lessons, but if you aren't willing to approach lessons with an open mind and a willingness to do what it takes, you are really just wasting the instructor's time.
Honestly, learning to read the basics of notation is pretty simple. Pick up just about any beginners book on the subject, practice hard, and you'll be sight-reading on a basic level in a week or two.
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.
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- KVRAF
- 2545 posts since 22 Jun, 2004 from Paris. Well, not far.
Maybe even more important than being able to read a score is being able to decypher chord notations, things like Amin7sus2, B#+, etc.ckatrun411 wrote:I think the skill of actually reading music is not paramount.
I can read music on a most basic level but still have to think about it a lot when I look at a piece of sheet music.
It's a nice skill. but, not the most important one. music is mostly about 1's ear, and 1 passion.
While, theory and sheet music are important... They are not the only aspects to doing something like playing piano.
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- KVRian
- 1480 posts since 14 Jun, 2003
I play by ear , and i read. i've been thru the debate many times.
i think both are fairly important, and ideally youd want to get to the point where you not only can read sheet music but you can also transcribe what you hear to sheet music.
music notation is damn simple when compared to other languages, and more to the point it all makes sense, unlike most languages.
i of course know there are a lot of good players who dont or cant read, but i know a lot of good players need to read and cant function w/o a script.
so theres no argument from me that good music can happen at the extreme ends of the spectrum on both sides.
heres some good notation points,
1) less rehersals, shorter rehersals, sometimes no rehersals if everyone can read really well.
2) more roles, like an actor if you can read your lines and make them believable, no mattter what the script is, youll get gigs.
3) work with others, working alone you dont need to read but once youre working with others its nice to speed up the transfer of ideas. Stevie and Ray both hire (hired) guys to arrange their charts for the session players and band players to read. notation is a standardized language and how often does that happen?, i think midi was like the last time for musicians. notation is like a master computer that you can hook any number of musicians to, from duet to unknown numbers, and have them play together.
4) subbing and emergency gigs, ill give you triple scale if you can fill in for me tonight kinda things.
5) self enterainment, like reading books reading sheet music can transport you to other worlds and put you in them.
6) memory, its can be dicey to trust your memory too much on a gig, having notes or anything can make things a lot easier. you may have memorized all your songs perfectly but when that bombshell blonde walks in the club and starts dancing right in front of you how well will your multitasking concentration hold up?
learning to read helped my ear too and my ear helped my learning to read.
i think both are fairly important, and ideally youd want to get to the point where you not only can read sheet music but you can also transcribe what you hear to sheet music.
music notation is damn simple when compared to other languages, and more to the point it all makes sense, unlike most languages.
i of course know there are a lot of good players who dont or cant read, but i know a lot of good players need to read and cant function w/o a script.
so theres no argument from me that good music can happen at the extreme ends of the spectrum on both sides.
heres some good notation points,
1) less rehersals, shorter rehersals, sometimes no rehersals if everyone can read really well.
2) more roles, like an actor if you can read your lines and make them believable, no mattter what the script is, youll get gigs.
3) work with others, working alone you dont need to read but once youre working with others its nice to speed up the transfer of ideas. Stevie and Ray both hire (hired) guys to arrange their charts for the session players and band players to read. notation is a standardized language and how often does that happen?, i think midi was like the last time for musicians. notation is like a master computer that you can hook any number of musicians to, from duet to unknown numbers, and have them play together.
4) subbing and emergency gigs, ill give you triple scale if you can fill in for me tonight kinda things.
5) self enterainment, like reading books reading sheet music can transport you to other worlds and put you in them.
6) memory, its can be dicey to trust your memory too much on a gig, having notes or anything can make things a lot easier. you may have memorized all your songs perfectly but when that bombshell blonde walks in the club and starts dancing right in front of you how well will your multitasking concentration hold up?
learning to read helped my ear too and my ear helped my learning to read.
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rvltion909@yahoo.com rvltion909@yahoo.com https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=93023
- KVRist
- 163 posts since 3 Jan, 2006
Im actually going to try the old Voyetra Teach Me Piano program soon. Its received high marks by many review sites. Dont expect any support from Voyetra though if you run into compatibility issues. One look at their "support" articles and it seems to have been written by some smug, condescending software engineer schmuck (think Simpsons Comic book Guy). 
Be careful if buying from ebay too because apparently I got a version that is "not supported" anymore. The support docs. Basically say... "its old, dont use it...and piss off if you do"
Make sure you buy the up to date build.
The concept is awesome though and from what I understand its interactive and teaches music reading too...I think.
http://piano-lesson-software-review.toptenreviews.com/
http://www.turtlebeach.com/products/tea ... /home.aspx
Be careful if buying from ebay too because apparently I got a version that is "not supported" anymore. The support docs. Basically say... "its old, dont use it...and piss off if you do"
Make sure you buy the up to date build.The concept is awesome though and from what I understand its interactive and teaches music reading too...I think.
http://piano-lesson-software-review.toptenreviews.com/
http://www.turtlebeach.com/products/tea ... /home.aspx
...chasing beats through ghetto streets...
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1958 posts since 16 Jan, 2005 from France's Dirty South
thanks for all the insight folks.
asorted thoughts on some of these comments :
.first of all interpretation is the least of my worries, eventhough i'd love to be playing some Chopin a couple of years from now, what i really wanna achieve with this is to acquire enough skills to navigate through chords and scales easiely, as a sort of hands on application for music theory ; my real goal being to improve my compositions. I'll shamelessly quantize my recordings if need be.
.jazz teacher seems like a godd idea really, i fancy the thought of learning some old standards and see how they can be altered through modulations etc
.'playing by ear'; i don't have the musical abilities to make sense of everything just by listening to it, i think i really need to be able to put names on those those things, and really understand how they relate to each other, that's where a teacher comes in handy i guess.
btw, anyone think i could get some nasty habits by practicing even the very basics on my own ?
i mean scales, chords fingerings, inversions, build my ear at the same time etc ; cause i was really thinking of getting the bulk of this down before starting lessons...
asorted thoughts on some of these comments :
.first of all interpretation is the least of my worries, eventhough i'd love to be playing some Chopin a couple of years from now, what i really wanna achieve with this is to acquire enough skills to navigate through chords and scales easiely, as a sort of hands on application for music theory ; my real goal being to improve my compositions. I'll shamelessly quantize my recordings if need be
..jazz teacher seems like a godd idea really, i fancy the thought of learning some old standards and see how they can be altered through modulations etc
.'playing by ear'; i don't have the musical abilities to make sense of everything just by listening to it, i think i really need to be able to put names on those those things, and really understand how they relate to each other, that's where a teacher comes in handy i guess.
btw, anyone think i could get some nasty habits by practicing even the very basics on my own ?
i mean scales, chords fingerings, inversions, build my ear at the same time etc ; cause i was really thinking of getting the bulk of this down before starting lessons...