I was working on this today:
Tristang demo updated
and, upon showing it to my guitar player, realized I'd foolishly made it starting on C instead of E (has it really been 3 years since I played with live musicians in a band? apparently) which as a former wind player is pretty stupid as I know all to well the feeling of people throwing music outside my instrument's range.
So I have this midi file:
Tristang midi
all of this is essentially the sketch of the cadence and resoloution of a part I'm working on.
Now I'm wondering if there's some sensible way I can transpose this from C to E or whatever the hell it is so that it can reasonably be approached by a guitar or bass player? All I know is that transposing it up a bunch of pitches will annihilate the careful harmonic relationships I made and that it'd take actual music theory knowledge to make m7b5 chords have the right intervals in a new key. Is there a transposition midi fx of some sort or do I actually have to re-do this all by ear?
working on Latin
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- KVRAF
- 10286 posts since 17 Sep, 2004 from Austin, TX
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- KVRian
- 814 posts since 12 Sep, 2005 from Renton, WA
I can see why it'd be hard to play in C on a regular guitar?
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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- KVRAF
- 4908 posts since 10 Aug, 2004 from Colorado Springs
runagate,
If I understand you correctly, you just want to transpose the bass and piano midi note values.
Most hosts have this capability built-in, I thought.
With Tracktion, you simply put the Tracktion pitch shift plugin BEFORE the midi synth and bang - the midi data are transposed to the new note values before hitting the VSTi.
If you don't have that plugin, I'm sure that one of nicfit's midi plugins can do this.
http://asseca.com/nicfit/
That's a big long list - note value reassign has to be in there somewhere. Probably in one of the munger plugins.
-Scott
If I understand you correctly, you just want to transpose the bass and piano midi note values.
Most hosts have this capability built-in, I thought.
With Tracktion, you simply put the Tracktion pitch shift plugin BEFORE the midi synth and bang - the midi data are transposed to the new note values before hitting the VSTi.
If you don't have that plugin, I'm sure that one of nicfit's midi plugins can do this.
http://asseca.com/nicfit/
That's a big long list - note value reassign has to be in there somewhere. Probably in one of the munger plugins.
-Scott
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- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
Nah, transposing it up a couple of pitches will be fine. All the chords will transpose so your m7b5 will still be a m7b5 but with a root a tone higher. The same with all the other chords.runagate wrote:Now I'm wondering if there's some sensible way I can transpose this from C to E or whatever the hell it is so that it can reasonably be approached by a guitar or bass player? All I know is that transposing it up a bunch of pitches will annihilate the careful harmonic relationships I made and that it'd take actual music theory knowledge to make m7b5 chords have the right intervals in a new key. Is there a transposition midi fx of some sort or do I actually have to re-do this all by ear?
Now with improved MIDI jitter!
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 10286 posts since 17 Sep, 2004 from Austin, TX
Nuffink, what you say makes sense to me logically, and certainly I played around with just moving it up 2 half steps in FL's piano roll.
But damn me if the cadence doesn't sound different. A lot different.
I'm hoping it's not just my overly finicky ear.
-1
for not stating my DAW like a newbie 
The chord A C D# G sounds especially different in when moved up from it's initial F G# B D#.
You see why I refuse to learn theory like a good puppy. I'd make a terrible guitar player, just arbitrarily using inversions and jumping to a new octave like it's all the same animal.
OK, I give in. Thanks for thwacking me in the head.
But damn me if the cadence doesn't sound different. A lot different.
I'm hoping it's not just my overly finicky ear.
-1
for not stating my DAW like a newbie The chord A C D# G sounds especially different in when moved up from it's initial F G# B D#.
You see why I refuse to learn theory like a good puppy. I'd make a terrible guitar player, just arbitrarily using inversions and jumping to a new octave like it's all the same animal.
OK, I give in. Thanks for thwacking me in the head.
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- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
I can understand it sounding different over, say, a bassline which hasn't been transposed. But if everything's been transposed then the relationships will remain intact.runagate wrote:Nuffink, what you say makes sense to me logically, and certainly I played around with just moving it up 2 half steps in FL's piano roll.
But damn me if the cadence doesn't sound different. A lot different.
I'm hoping it's not just my overly finicky ear.
Maybe you prefer the timbre of the particular key you recorded it in.
Now with improved MIDI jitter!
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 10286 posts since 17 Sep, 2004 from Austin, TX
I updated it:
Tristango demo 2
It annoys me to no end to hear unsyncopated rhythms that humans will later play, but it serves the purpose of laying down the chordal structure nicely. I'm not even going to attempt to mouse-in other parts of this little ditty, but does appear to have worked out basically how I imagined.
Al lof it was inspired by recent weird theory discussions I've lurked in on of you nuffink, rick and jancivil at various times and my apparently limitless enjoyment of playing with cadence and contour.
Tristango demo 2
It annoys me to no end to hear unsyncopated rhythms that humans will later play, but it serves the purpose of laying down the chordal structure nicely. I'm not even going to attempt to mouse-in other parts of this little ditty, but does appear to have worked out basically how I imagined.
Al lof it was inspired by recent weird theory discussions I've lurked in on of you nuffink, rick and jancivil at various times and my apparently limitless enjoyment of playing with cadence and contour.
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- KVRAF
- 2909 posts since 15 Feb, 2007 from ...in the butt
You could always have the guitars tune down 2 steps.
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- KVRAF
- 8099 posts since 12 Dec, 2003 from Canada
Hey super cool runny! Not the twisted swirl I was expecting, but surprises are good, and you're full of surprises. 
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 10286 posts since 17 Sep, 2004 from Austin, TX
pattonfreak1 wrote:You could always have the guitars tune down 2 steps.
You are so metal.
Not a surprise to me at all. When I started out trying to make computer music I'd say about 50% of what I did was Latin rhythm inflected organ and bass jazz bits and pieces. I quickly learned that mimicking real playing with a piano roll is possible but a ridiculous amount of work, whereas the possibilities in what I now know to call "sound design" with which I've been obsessed for shit like 15 or more years now, would occupy most of my efforts, biding my time until I could somehow get this technology affordably and bring it into a live environment. Which this here chordal framework is the beginnings of. Luckily my guitarist bandmate from JSP loved it, so we're full steam ahead. I guess I'll come back when it's been developed further. That pile of chords is a major victory for me though since obviously I barely know wtf I'm doing when developing cadence from theory, which in this case was necessary. I usually do it all in my head then sound it out on the piano roll. My ear is much, much smarter than my brain, sadly.polyslax wrote:Hey super cool runny! Not the twisted swirl I was expecting, but surprises are good, and you're full of surprises.
Thanks for listening.
Oh, here's all the notes so far:
- Intro
Bass
E->B A G G# E B
Chords
F G# B
C D# F# A
A# D F A
G# B D
Main
Bass
G# B x D#
x D# x A
E-> C# E
G x C F#
G# x B x
F# B D# x
F C# x A#
-> C G->
F#-> A x
G# D# F->
G x A# E
D# x C G
A D# x D#
x G D# x
B G# A x
A# F B F
Chords
E G# B D#
----
F# A C# E
A C D# G
G# B D# F#
----
G A# C# F
----
F# A C# E
F G# B D# x2
C E G A# x2
A C D# G
G B D F C# x3
A C D# G
A C D# G B x2
G B D F A#
Syncop Bridge
Bass
B F x F
x A F x
C# A# x B
C G C# G
Chords
B D F
F G# B D
----
G# C D# F
x
D# G# A# C#
C E G#
x
A# D F#
F G# C D# G D
x
B E F#
A# D F
C# F# G#
x
G# C# D# F#
Ill Bridge
Bass
A A A (3 across 4)
x x C G
F C E D#
C x C x
Chords
D# G A
F# A# C
C E G A# D A
Last edited by runagate on Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 4908 posts since 10 Aug, 2004 from Colorado Springs
I'll take a crack at these - not knowing what they line up over in the bass makes it hard to interpret the chords exactly.
Runagate - you do understand that transposing shifts all of the notes of a chord by the same number of 1/2 steps, correct? I'm wondering if you think of transposing as just moving one's hand up/down the keyboard because you're example here uses all white keys, no sharps/flats.
If you use MIDI to transpose, some of these notes are going to get sharps and flats on them by nature. With your comments, it almost makes me think that your idea of transposing means still playing all white keys and keeping hand shapes the same. That's not transposition.
Please forgive me if I just insulted you - not my intention; it's just a bit abnormal to have an entire song, that isn't in the key of C, without a few sharps/flats in there. With your comments about strange sounds, it has me thinking that your idea of transposing is just moving your hands up or down the keyboard by a certain number of white keys. In this case, then the result would be quite ugly.
FGB could be G7 (missing the 5th)
CDFA could be F6
ADFA could be F6 again, missing the 5th
GBD is G major
FGBD could be Bdim7
GCDF could be, well, I'm not sure
CEG = easy one; C major
FGCDGD = still not sure what this one is
CFG = Csus4
GCDF = again has me puzzled
FAC = F major
CEGADA = Gmajor 6/9 (maybe?)
-Scott
Runagate - you do understand that transposing shifts all of the notes of a chord by the same number of 1/2 steps, correct? I'm wondering if you think of transposing as just moving one's hand up/down the keyboard because you're example here uses all white keys, no sharps/flats.
If you use MIDI to transpose, some of these notes are going to get sharps and flats on them by nature. With your comments, it almost makes me think that your idea of transposing means still playing all white keys and keeping hand shapes the same. That's not transposition.
Please forgive me if I just insulted you - not my intention; it's just a bit abnormal to have an entire song, that isn't in the key of C, without a few sharps/flats in there. With your comments about strange sounds, it has me thinking that your idea of transposing is just moving your hands up or down the keyboard by a certain number of white keys. In this case, then the result would be quite ugly.
You could interpret these chords a couple different ways.runagate wrote: Chords
F G B
C D F A
A D F A
G B D
FGB could be G7 (missing the 5th)
CDFA could be F6
ADFA could be F6 again, missing the 5th
GBD is G major
BDF could be Bdiminished
Syncop Bridge
Chords
B D F
F G B D
----
G C D F
FGBD could be Bdim7
GCDF could be, well, I'm not sure
DGAC = maybe G2sus4x
D G A C
C E G
x
CEG = easy one; C major
ADF = DminA D F
F G C D G D
x
B E F
FGCDGD = still not sure what this one is
ADF=DminA D F
C F G
x
G C D F
CFG = Csus4
GCDF = again has me puzzled
DGA = Dsus4Ill Bridge
Chords
D G A
F A C
C E G A D A
FAC = F major
CEGADA = Gmajor 6/9 (maybe?)
-Scott
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 10286 posts since 17 Sep, 2004 from Austin, TX
Whoa... not sure wtf happened to all the #s!
I copy/pasted that from my myspace blog where I just went back to check that it was posted correctly... and there's no sharps there, either.
Hmm, some html thing in the blog I daresay. Stupid frickin' myspace.
Brb w/corrected notes, edited back into the post above...
I copy/pasted that from my myspace blog where I just went back to check that it was posted correctly... and there's no sharps there, either.
Hmm, some html thing in the blog I daresay. Stupid frickin' myspace.
Brb w/corrected notes, edited back into the post above...
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 10286 posts since 17 Sep, 2004 from Austin, TX
OK, all the sharps are back in there.
rockstar... not insulted at all. Despite all that I know about music, the instruments I can play, improv, along with just about any kind of music I apparently will never break down and give all the sounds the same names as theory people, but I'm just as fascinated by all the mathematics behind equal temperament music as anyone else is, and always love to see you people discuss it.
rockstar... not insulted at all. Despite all that I know about music, the instruments I can play, improv, along with just about any kind of music I apparently will never break down and give all the sounds the same names as theory people, but I'm just as fascinated by all the mathematics behind equal temperament music as anyone else is, and always love to see you people discuss it.