Q abt C Major & relative A minor

[jancivil]

an eight note scale might contain an f and an f sharp without causing too much global or universal catastrophe. EG.,

G# A B C D Eb F F# [the symmetrical octatonic scale on 'vii of A minor']

more on topic:
the teacher's remark isn't unqualifiedly true, if it were one would have to arbitrarily disinclude too much music (in 'melodic minor' for starters) 'in [A] minor'.

[nuffink]

Thanks for the replies every1,

Looking more at the link I posted above, it appears that my teacher was right AFAICT. All the harmonic minors (aka relative minors, again AFAICT) have a sharpened VII. Eg, A-minor has G#, E-minor has 3 sharps (2 sharps used in its relative major (D-Major) & a raised 7th), F#minor has 4 sharps (3 sharps that are also in A-Major + a raised 7th), etc, etc

I still don't really understand how the relative minors can share their relative majors' key signatures when they have a sharpened 7th. Looking at F#minor it looks like the reason is due to enharmonic note naming, (it starts with F#, so it's VII can't be F-natural <coz a scale can't have 2 notes with the same letter in it (F#,F) - the entire universe would blow up if this ever happened> thus the F-natural is renamed to, the infintitely more confusing, E#!)

Anyways, thanks again for replies!

Flipya, you're making this more complicated than it is.

There are three type of minor scale...

The natural minor which has no sharpened degrees. This uses the key signature of its relative major.

The harmonic minor which is the same as the natural minor but with a sharpened 7th degree. This also uses the same key signature as its relative major. The sharpened 7ths are indicated by accidentals.

The melodic minor* which is the same as the natural minor but with a sharpened 7th degree and a sharpened 6th degree. This also uses the same key signature as its relative major. The sharpened 7ths and 6ths are indicated by accidentals.

As you can see all three types use the same key signature as their relative major. The sharpened degrees are indicated by accidentals





*For the sake of the pedants, yes I know that it's traditionally only used while ascending but let's not confuse the issue any more

[beboop]

flippya, I think you're just confusing _relative minor_ and _harmonic minor_. My guess is your teacher gave you the correct info, you've misunderstood, no problem, happens, the subject is complex, ask about it next lesson.

A Harmonic Minor is a _scale_, the key of A Minor is a _key_, two different things, don't get hung up on thinking they're identical.

If your teacher told you

1) A Minor is the _relative minor_ key to C Major, and shares the same _key signature_.

2) The A Harmonic Minor scale contains the note G#

3) The key of A Minor, despite the G natural indicated by the key signature, sometimes uses the note G#

then all those things are unequivocally, unambiguously, uncontroversially true.

Pretty unlikely thing for a teacher to screw up -- there are some godawful incompetents 'teaching', but nothing you've posted so far makes me think your teacher is one of them.

[Rod Staples]

I still don't really understand how the relative minors can share their relative majors' key signatures when they have a sharpened 7th. Looking at F#minor it looks like the reason is due to enharmonic note naming, (it starts with F#, so it's VII can't be F-natural <coz a scale can't have 2 notes with the same letter in it (F#,F) - the entire universe would blow up if this ever happened> thus the F-natural is renamed to, the infintitely more confusing, E#!)

Anyways, thanks again for replies!

It is because minors are not straight forward.

You have a major scale and that is it. Minors have variants and consequently sound more interesting in my opinion.

A so called natural minor has exactly the sames notes as it's relative major scale and so has the same key signature. Your teacher is talking about the harmonic minor, where the 7th note is sharpened. There is also the melodic minor, where the 6th and 7th notes are sharpened when the scale is ascending, but when the scale descends, the 6th and 7th notes are not sharpened, i.e. are natural. This is where the key signature makes sense, because seeing the 2 sharps on a rising pattern but missing going down is a giveaway for the melodic minor and seeing the 1 sharp is a giveaway for the minor key.

(The natural minor as a scale is recognised in jazz, but in classical music it is not really recognised, it is just the melodic minor descending).

Pupils are usually taught about the major then the harmonic minor. You will probably come on to the melodic minor later.


So you see the key signature is the same for major and relative minor (if you're talking about the natural minor), it's just that in classical music, by saying minor, it is assumed that you're talking about the variant of harmonic minor or even melodic minor.


Hope that helps.

[Mike777]

Flipya, you're making this more complicated than it is.

There are three type of minor scale...

The natural minor which has no sharpened degrees. This uses the key signature of its relative major.

The harmonic minor which is the same as the natural minor but with a sharpened 7th degree. This also uses the same key signature as its relative major. The sharpened 7ths are indicated by accidentals.

The melodic minor* which is the same as the natural minor but with a sharpened 7th degree and a sharpened 6th degree. This also uses the same key signature as its relative major. The sharpened 7ths and 6ths are indicated by accidentals.

As you can see all three types use the same key signature as their relative major. The sharpened degrees are indicated by accidentals

Very well explained!

flippya2000, it's just traditional convention that accidentals are used when composing in a minor key as explained above. The main reason being that compositions in a minor key will often use the raised 6th and 7th when a melody line is ascending, and lowered when descending.

[JumpingJackFlash]

E-minor has 3 sharps (2 sharps used in its relative major (D-Major) & a raised 7th),

No, the key of E minor has one sharp (F#), (its relative major is G).
The scale of E harmonic minor also has the seventh note raised by one semitone; D becoming D#.

I still don't really understand how the relative minors can share their relative majors' key signatures when they have a sharpened 7th. Looking at F#minor it looks like the reason is due to enharmonic note naming, (it starts with F#, so it's VII can't be F-natural <coz a scale can't have 2 notes with the same letter in it (F#,F) - the entire universe would blow up if this ever happened> thus the F-natural is renamed to, the infintitely more confusing, E#!)

There is some truth in this, but this is not the point. The seventh note in F# minor is E. (F# natural minor has E-natural). In the harmonic minor, the rule is you raise this one semitone (or 'sharpen' it), that is why it becomes E#. The fact that enharmonically it is the same as F-natural is just coincidence. (But you're right that you couldn't have two versions of the same note in a minor scale).

You could spend ages and get a big headache if you considered all the whys and wherefores. It should just be enough for now to accept the rules; harmonic minor according to key signature but with the seventh raised a semitone (as an accidental, not part of the key signature).

[flippya2000]

Cheers for the replies guys

Thanks for clearing that up nuffink regarding the 3 minor scales. My teacher only told me about the melodic (ascending+descending) & harmonic, but for some reason didn't tell me about the natural..Probably because it isn't on the exam (I have to learn either the harmonic OR melodic for the keys of A+D), still I think I was right, (when I originally played A-minor for my teacher) I just wasn't playing the exact type of minor my teacher wanted me to play(melodic), but it was still C-Major's relative minor! Lol

Thanks again to every1 who replied, & for putting up with my confusion

[dark.nowhere]

flippya2000, I'm just going to add something that I don't believe has been said (I skimmed the replies, but sorry if I missed it.) I believe the reason _why_ the 7ths are sharpened is because of their relationship with the root note. If you take into account the difference, in C-maj, between C and B - there's only one semitone: sharpening the 7th in the minor will preserve that relationship. Same idea goes for the 6th. According to the math, FWIW, this sounds better.

This bugged me at first to the point where I was completely put off. Honestly I just needed to learn some other things first, but when I learned them this popped right out at me and I got over my aversion.

[Download SOphist]

Oh... I'm so glad all my songs are in C major.

[frederik D]

Thanks for the replies every1,


I still don't really understand how the relative minors can share their relative majors' key signatures when they have a sharpened 7th.
Anyways, thanks again for replies!

One of the reasons is that the 7th may not always be sharpened! Not only in the old modes, but even in a more common/popular minor style. Just think of the triad-chord you'd put on the third note of your a-minor scale: it will have a c-note, an e-note and a g-note. Now, if you'd use a sharpened g, you will get an augmented chord (there is no perfect fifth between the c and g#), which has a quite particular and in a way unstable feeling to it, because of the two major thirds. So, a lot of the time you will be using a non-sharpened g tot get a "normal" major C-chord.
For example: a common popular progression is a-minor, c-major, d-minor, e-major, where you first have the normal and later on the sharpened G.

You still could as why the non sharpened g is the norm (instead of the sharpened one): I think this has historical and practical reasons. Historical: in older music the 7th wasn't sharpened.
Practical: there are several ways of dealing with minor scales. In a melodical use and in an ascending line the classical theory states that not only the seventh, but the sixth also should be sharpened (to avoid the one-and-a-half step between the 6th and the 7th in case of f-G#). In descending melodical line, these two according to the same procedure should be natural (non-sharpened).
So, since a minor key signature never can take account of all those different usages, and to maintain the close musical relation with C major (a lot of pieces in one of the two keys has movements or somtimes small passages in the other key) the key signature simply doesn't have the augmentation(s)!


Hope this helps you out a little bit more.
Oh, and one more advise: you might just look at some Bach-pieces in a minor (or other minor keys to see how interesting they deal with sharpened/non sharpened notes). Just this morning I played the slow part of the 'italian concerto' (in f-major, but the slow middle section is in d-minor), and this has several very interesting passages of this kind (at a moment there is B-flat in the bass, but b in the melody etc...).

bye,

frederik

[flippya2000]

Thanks for the reply Frederik,

Your reply has helped me, especially when you explained why 6th+7th tones are sharpened while ascending & not when descending. Definately alot of food 4 thought

I just listened to some Bach, but will be looking at more of his (& others work) too. Thanks again for your reply - it's v.appreciated

[beboop]

I just listened to some Bach, but will be looking at more of his (& others work) too.

good plan! yeah, that's really how you'll sort this stuff out -- you need the context to see how all these conventions work, and why they're useful.

Oddly enough I've just been learning another bit of Bach that also might be useful for you to see how these things work out in practice -- the Allemande from the French Suite no. 2.

Couple of things about it that might be specifically relevant to your question -- It's in C minor, in the opening phrase you can see the melodic minor scale ascending. By the fourth bar though an E natural appears, and by the end of the piece all twelve chromatic tones have been used. That might help clarify the business of scale, key, and key signature a bit.

and hey, it's a really swell piece of music, too!