What chords to use for D Dorian mode?
D dorian mode, its the C major Scale but from
D to D, Not C to C, thus giving it a sad blues
like sound. So far someone gave me this good advice
For the first step you can use:
Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7, B half dim and Cmaj7
http://www.mp3.com/mucarvalho.
Anyone have anymore
input?
What chords to use for D Dorian mode?
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- KVRAF
- 2401 posts since 29 Dec, 2002 from In the dark
Good start you have. Too many 7th tend to give an "empty" sound, i.e. you continiously expect a resollution that never comes.
Another chord to add is the Csus2. I think this is a favourite with jazz - I'm thinking Joni Mitchell (Cayote) here. Also look at Neil Young's Harvest moon where I think he uses the dorian mode, playing the D chord with an open E ringing (i.e. sus2 again). But he only uses the dorian for the riff and then jumps staight back into his usual minor mode. I know Satch also favours the dorian, but have no idea what chords he uses.
Another chord to add is the Csus2. I think this is a favourite with jazz - I'm thinking Joni Mitchell (Cayote) here. Also look at Neil Young's Harvest moon where I think he uses the dorian mode, playing the D chord with an open E ringing (i.e. sus2 again). But he only uses the dorian for the riff and then jumps staight back into his usual minor mode. I know Satch also favours the dorian, but have no idea what chords he uses.
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- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
Once you start playing those chords you're no longer playing D Dorian, you're playing C major. It'll sound like C major rather D dorian unless you can unambiguously establish D as the tonic. This is hard.jc21161 wrote:What chords to use for D Dorian mode?
D dorian mode, its the C major Scale but from
D to D, Not C to C, thus giving it a sad blues
like sound. So far someone gave me this good advice
For the first step you can use:
Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7, B half dim and Cmaj7
http://www.mp3.com/mucarvalho.
Anyone have anymore
input?
The Dorian (like all modes) gets its character from the notes of its scale (the major scale) played over a characteristic chord. In the case of the dorian that chord is the second of the scale, which is a minor(7) chord.
If you play the dorian mode over (say) the G7 it's no longer the dorian mode it's the mixolydian. Same notes over a different characteristic chord.
You can play games with the characteristic chord. In this specific mode you can substitute a minor 6th or a 7sus4. You can voice the D minor as a F6. The 9th 11th and 13th are all available as tensions. But, in general, modal playing is done over static harmony.
Now with improved MIDI jitter!
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
nuff is right about *character/istic*
modal and chordal thinking are 2 diff things
with any mode, you find the characteristic note(s)
dorian on d tonic only differs from 'minor' by that natural 6 and b7
that's its 'character': 'IV' is major, G major.
the bVII, C major, is the other one; e minor subs for either.
avoid G7 and b dim at all costs.
modal and chordal thinking are 2 diff things
with any mode, you find the characteristic note(s)
dorian on d tonic only differs from 'minor' by that natural 6 and b7
that's its 'character': 'IV' is major, G major.
the bVII, C major, is the other one; e minor subs for either.
avoid G7 and b dim at all costs.
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- KVRian
- 1440 posts since 16 Jul, 2003 from Zwollywood, The Netherlands (Europe)
I am very interested in this topic because I do not know how it works. I know some theory but this part still is vague to me.
I know the D Dorian mode is made up from these notes:
d e f g a b c
These notes are equal to those of the C major scale, when you start and end with the 'd' note. Also, the notes differ from the D major scale in this way: the 3rd and 7th note are lowered by a half step / half a note.
Cool.
But I have no idea what this means when I want to put some chords to go with my D Dorian notes in which I make some cool melody (or at least I'm trying to do so).
D Dorian's notes equals those of C major's notes, so perhaps I could use those chords?
d + f + a = D minor, so that will be the tonic?
The 4th and 5th will be G maj and A minor.
But, I have watched a video once, where Frank Gambale explained that you must use the root note (d in this case) as a pedal tone to both the 4th and 5th chord, in order to make it a Dorian mode.
I think nuffink says this too, albeit in other words.
Then the 4th will be d + G maj = d + g + b + d, so this will become G/b : G with a 'b' as the bass note.
The 5th will be d + A min = d + a + c + e = ???? A min 11 ???
I'm so without knowledge about this stuff
Where are some good books that teach you how to harmonise modes?
BTW, online info will do fine too
I know the D Dorian mode is made up from these notes:
d e f g a b c
These notes are equal to those of the C major scale, when you start and end with the 'd' note. Also, the notes differ from the D major scale in this way: the 3rd and 7th note are lowered by a half step / half a note.
Cool.
But I have no idea what this means when I want to put some chords to go with my D Dorian notes in which I make some cool melody (or at least I'm trying to do so).
D Dorian's notes equals those of C major's notes, so perhaps I could use those chords?
d + f + a = D minor, so that will be the tonic?
The 4th and 5th will be G maj and A minor.
But, I have watched a video once, where Frank Gambale explained that you must use the root note (d in this case) as a pedal tone to both the 4th and 5th chord, in order to make it a Dorian mode.
I think nuffink says this too, albeit in other words.
Then the 4th will be d + G maj = d + g + b + d, so this will become G/b : G with a 'b' as the bass note.
The 5th will be d + A min = d + a + c + e = ???? A min 11 ???
I'm so without knowledge about this stuff
Where are some good books that teach you how to harmonise modes?
BTW, online info will do fine too
-- Regards MrM --
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
what mr gambale means is that 'modal' means you are always referring to tonic, otherwise it's something else;
'modal' was a huge fashion in jazz around 1951, Miles Davis, 'So What' etc.; it's static. raga, arabic music, built on modes, they don't go anywhere, they hang out and chill; blues is modal. real modal music doesn't use chords, it's all pedal and melody against that pedal, as if a Drone.
theoretically you can say as did nuffink, you can play around with chords in this/that way, but that's sort of playing with your food at this point.
there is not a dominant to tonic in the same way in modal, you don't get A major with a flat 7 obviously, that's got the c#, which destroys the mode (an experienced jazzer might play with that too and get away with it, but again that gets ahead of yourself I think at this point.) the only native
'dominant seventh' [again a major triad with a minor 7] is g b d f, which is anathema here, it points hard to C, and you've 'modulated' to C, a no go basically.
I, which is the tonic chord, d f a.
bIII, f a c
IV, which is the g b d
bVII, the chord built on c, the seventh degree, c e g
that's your chords in dorian MODE.
see that g b d? an e minor7 is 'e g b d', and subs for either the G or C chord
same as d minor is subbed by F, they are relatives, 'F 6' is also called 'd min 7'
when you try much else, you're doing something that isn't modal, usually.
use your ear to correlate this theory, which doesn't mean much til ya do.
that a, b and c against the d pedal is the thing, that's the sound of DORIAN MODE;
this is parallel with d, e, and f, those are going to be your basics; these li'l turns b c b >A, e f e >D -
work those two licks against the pedal, see if they work vs. these three basic chords, and you've a real start.
'modal' was a huge fashion in jazz around 1951, Miles Davis, 'So What' etc.; it's static. raga, arabic music, built on modes, they don't go anywhere, they hang out and chill; blues is modal. real modal music doesn't use chords, it's all pedal and melody against that pedal, as if a Drone.
theoretically you can say as did nuffink, you can play around with chords in this/that way, but that's sort of playing with your food at this point.
there is not a dominant to tonic in the same way in modal, you don't get A major with a flat 7 obviously, that's got the c#, which destroys the mode (an experienced jazzer might play with that too and get away with it, but again that gets ahead of yourself I think at this point.) the only native
'dominant seventh' [again a major triad with a minor 7] is g b d f, which is anathema here, it points hard to C, and you've 'modulated' to C, a no go basically.
I, which is the tonic chord, d f a.
bIII, f a c
IV, which is the g b d
bVII, the chord built on c, the seventh degree, c e g
that's your chords in dorian MODE.
see that g b d? an e minor7 is 'e g b d', and subs for either the G or C chord
same as d minor is subbed by F, they are relatives, 'F 6' is also called 'd min 7'
when you try much else, you're doing something that isn't modal, usually.
use your ear to correlate this theory, which doesn't mean much til ya do.
that a, b and c against the d pedal is the thing, that's the sound of DORIAN MODE;
this is parallel with d, e, and f, those are going to be your basics; these li'l turns b c b >A, e f e >D -
work those two licks against the pedal, see if they work vs. these three basic chords, and you've a real start.
Last edited by jancivil on Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 4867 posts since 18 Dec, 2000
You lost me here, can you explain this a bit more?jancivil wrote:
that a, b and c against the d pedal is the thing, that's the sound of DORIAN MODE;
this is parallel with d, e, and f, those are going to be your basics; these li'l turns b c b >A, e f e >D -
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
chordwizard produces a lot chords, but as far as major chords C, F and G...minor chords D, E and A 
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
I'm trying to get you to think modally, you're getting lost in theory, puts the cart before the horse.
ok do this: play a pedal D
sing a little turn e, f, back down to e against that.
hear that?
now, make a proper drone with D and A together.
sing the same kinda of deal as above, b, c, b down to the A, while holding your tonic pedal.
do this latter lick against an F chord. it's a little more pungent, that b rilly wanna go to a.
a C chord to d minor, over and over again, you hear it in all kinds rock.
F to d minor, same deal; you always have d as a referent.
that D has to be constant, I'll illustrate [what mr gambale meant is that]: once you stray from the D pedal, and play C, C has its own gravity; you play that b c b turn, it means Something Else now.
do that b c b thing over a minor, it means something else without that constant D.
you follow?
ok do this: play a pedal D
sing a little turn e, f, back down to e against that.
hear that?
now, make a proper drone with D and A together.
sing the same kinda of deal as above, b, c, b down to the A, while holding your tonic pedal.
do this latter lick against an F chord. it's a little more pungent, that b rilly wanna go to a.
a C chord to d minor, over and over again, you hear it in all kinds rock.
F to d minor, same deal; you always have d as a referent.
that D has to be constant, I'll illustrate [what mr gambale meant is that]: once you stray from the D pedal, and play C, C has its own gravity; you play that b c b turn, it means Something Else now.
do that b c b thing over a minor, it means something else without that constant D.
you follow?
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
it's not about the chords
modal is about line, chords are for decoration, or if you gotta be commercial or some thing.
take the two licks, degrees 6 and 7;
2 and 3 against a drone, that's dorian mode, there's not a lot to it except the sound.
now if you're miles davis or some body you do 'a minor 7' against the D pedal and you've a nice COLOR, but that's icing.
'parallel', I meant that the notes c b and a
and f e and d are the same intervallically, a fifth apart, which should be obvious
modal is about line, chords are for decoration, or if you gotta be commercial or some thing.
take the two licks, degrees 6 and 7;
2 and 3 against a drone, that's dorian mode, there's not a lot to it except the sound.
now if you're miles davis or some body you do 'a minor 7' against the D pedal and you've a nice COLOR, but that's icing.
'parallel', I meant that the notes c b and a
and f e and d are the same intervallically, a fifth apart, which should be obvious
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 48 posts since 29 Jan, 2008 from Washington State Sunnyside, USA
Thank you all for your input to this string, I did not think this string would be this large just in about 24 hours.
I am going to study all input carefully even any off-topic subjects is giving a broader idea.
What draws me to the D Dorian mode is it's simplicity. You do not need to memorize
any scales to produce rock folk country or whatever music because you're just playing the white keys on the keyboard from D to D and it will have the sound that's usually required.
You can correct me if I'm wrong but if someone was to write a book entitled, [Learn Music Theory and Produce Music in One Day] would not the D Dorian work for all the music they would probly ever get around to making anyway, unless they plan on working with other uncontrollable musicians? Below is some more information on the D Dorian Mold.
One of the modes most commonly used in rock is the Dorian mode.
Black Magic Woman Is in D Dorian Mold
Dorian - a variation of pure minor, with a raised sixth degree
This idea after the arrow below over heats my brain win triying to under stand, but its probably really is simple.
When the author is talking about degree what does he mean, is it the same as STEP Some insight on this would be cool.
--> Whether a mode is major or minor
depends on the chord which it is built on.
If a mode is built on the second degree of a major scale, it's first chord
would be minor, making that whole mode minor. For example, in the
D dorian mode (relative of C Major), the first degree is D. In Ionian mode
(C Major), D would be a minor chord, so the scale of D dorian is a minor
mode.
I am going to study all input carefully even any off-topic subjects is giving a broader idea.
What draws me to the D Dorian mode is it's simplicity. You do not need to memorize
any scales to produce rock folk country or whatever music because you're just playing the white keys on the keyboard from D to D and it will have the sound that's usually required.
You can correct me if I'm wrong but if someone was to write a book entitled, [Learn Music Theory and Produce Music in One Day] would not the D Dorian work for all the music they would probly ever get around to making anyway, unless they plan on working with other uncontrollable musicians? Below is some more information on the D Dorian Mold.
One of the modes most commonly used in rock is the Dorian mode.
Black Magic Woman Is in D Dorian Mold
Dorian - a variation of pure minor, with a raised sixth degree
This idea after the arrow below over heats my brain win triying to under stand, but its probably really is simple.
When the author is talking about degree what does he mean, is it the same as STEP Some insight on this would be cool.
--> Whether a mode is major or minor
depends on the chord which it is built on.
If a mode is built on the second degree of a major scale, it's first chord
would be minor, making that whole mode minor. For example, in the
D dorian mode (relative of C Major), the first degree is D. In Ionian mode
(C Major), D would be a minor chord, so the scale of D dorian is a minor
mode.
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- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
There's always a lot of confusion surrounding modes. Here's a little example it may clear thing up it may just add to the confusion. Who knows?
Take a simple rising melodic line D E F G A B C D. Those notes tell you it's in C major*, but what mode? You might think it's in the Dorian since it starts and ends on the second degree of C major. You'd be wrong, the start or end notes of a melody tell you nothing about its mode. The fact is that without any other reference you can't tell what mode it's in.
Once a chord is struck those same notes take on a modal identity.
Lets take the (triad) chords formed on the second and third degrees of C major, which are D minor and E minor. Theory tells us that the modes associated with these are D Dorian and E Phrygian but why? The melody we're going to play over them (D E F G A B C D) is the same and both chords are minor so what's the difference?
When you strike D minor (D F A) the non chord notes of the scale (E G B and C) form specific intervals over the chord notes. In this case none of them is capable of forming the highly dissonant minor 9th with a chord note. This combination of the melody (D E F G A B C D) played over this specific minor chord (D F A) has a characteristic sound, the sound of the Dorian mode.
If you now strike the E minor chord (E G B) the non chord notes in the scale are F A C and D. The F can form a minor 9th against the E of the chord and the C can form a minor 9th against the B of the chord. This combination of the same melody (D E F G A B C D) played over this specific minor chord (E G B) has a different characteristic sound, the sound of the Phyrigian mode.
As you can see the specific modal flavour of a piece lasts as long as the characteristic chord is resonating. As soon as that chord is superceded by another, even if the melody is completely unchanged, the mode changes.
This is why modal playing really only makes sense on static harmony.
*Yes I know it could be A natural minor but natural minor is a mode of major, the Aolian mode, not a truly distinct scale.
Take a simple rising melodic line D E F G A B C D. Those notes tell you it's in C major*, but what mode? You might think it's in the Dorian since it starts and ends on the second degree of C major. You'd be wrong, the start or end notes of a melody tell you nothing about its mode. The fact is that without any other reference you can't tell what mode it's in.
Once a chord is struck those same notes take on a modal identity.
Lets take the (triad) chords formed on the second and third degrees of C major, which are D minor and E minor. Theory tells us that the modes associated with these are D Dorian and E Phrygian but why? The melody we're going to play over them (D E F G A B C D) is the same and both chords are minor so what's the difference?
When you strike D minor (D F A) the non chord notes of the scale (E G B and C) form specific intervals over the chord notes. In this case none of them is capable of forming the highly dissonant minor 9th with a chord note. This combination of the melody (D E F G A B C D) played over this specific minor chord (D F A) has a characteristic sound, the sound of the Dorian mode.
If you now strike the E minor chord (E G B) the non chord notes in the scale are F A C and D. The F can form a minor 9th against the E of the chord and the C can form a minor 9th against the B of the chord. This combination of the same melody (D E F G A B C D) played over this specific minor chord (E G B) has a different characteristic sound, the sound of the Phyrigian mode.
As you can see the specific modal flavour of a piece lasts as long as the characteristic chord is resonating. As soon as that chord is superceded by another, even if the melody is completely unchanged, the mode changes.
This is why modal playing really only makes sense on static harmony.
*Yes I know it could be A natural minor but natural minor is a mode of major, the Aolian mode, not a truly distinct scale.
Now with improved MIDI jitter!
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- KVRAF
- 4867 posts since 18 Dec, 2000
Thanks Nuffink,
Let me see if I understand what you're saying.
I only know basic stuff about theory, this is way over my head.
If I want to play in Dorian I can only really play one chord?
Thanks,
dw
Let me see if I understand what you're saying.
I only know basic stuff about theory, this is way over my head.
If I want to play in Dorian I can only really play one chord?
Thanks,
dw
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- KVRAF
- 3864 posts since 29 Feb, 2004
So you're saying your melody is in D dorian ?
Here is another way to look at it:
Any chord built exclusively from white keys will work.
Obviously some will sound better than others, but that's a matter of taste and musical context.
Adding black keys is a gamble, again depending on context they might produce interesting results but more often just sound weird to the average listener.
Strongly establishing D as your tonal centre is vital, or else your D dorian idea might indeed be perceived as C major, B phrygian or whatever.
Try it, use a constant D bass and add white-key-chords over it and you can improvise in D dorian without ever leaving the scale.
Once you've grasped the feel you can build more interesting bass lines, but always establish D as tonal centre.
Two great musicians having built large parts of their compositions on variations of this idea are Carlos Santana and Frank Zappa, there are hundreds more, especially in Jazz.
Cheers,
susiwong
Here is another way to look at it:
Any chord built exclusively from white keys will work.
Obviously some will sound better than others, but that's a matter of taste and musical context.
Adding black keys is a gamble, again depending on context they might produce interesting results but more often just sound weird to the average listener.
Strongly establishing D as your tonal centre is vital, or else your D dorian idea might indeed be perceived as C major, B phrygian or whatever.
Try it, use a constant D bass and add white-key-chords over it and you can improvise in D dorian without ever leaving the scale.
Once you've grasped the feel you can build more interesting bass lines, but always establish D as tonal centre.
Two great musicians having built large parts of their compositions on variations of this idea are Carlos Santana and Frank Zappa, there are hundreds more, especially in Jazz.
Cheers,
susiwong