As a preface, I've always been a software guy. Yesterday, I walked into a music store and played with a few romplers. The Korg M3, Yamaha Motif XS, and the Fantom X. I was trying to get a feel for their sonic quality vs. the software that I use. I walked away thoroughly unimpressed. I didn't hear a single sound that that couldn't be topped by something in my software library. The M3 was especially disappointing. Everything sounded so incredibly thin.
So what is it about these workstations that justify the price tags? Is it just the convenience of having everything integrated without having to work at setting it up? Is it about stability? It can't be the sound quality, IMO. None of the sequencers hold a candle to software. The sample rom on any workstation is absolutely dwarfed by what can be stored on a computer.
If you have a stable high end PC, what place does one of these workstations have in your setup? I have to be missing something if so many people spend so much money on these pieces of hardware.
Edit: I forgot about one thing. Live performance. So let me rephrase my question. What's the appeal of one of these for a hobbyist musician who does not play live?
What's the appeal of a ROMpler workstation?
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- KVRian
- 897 posts since 2 Aug, 2001 from norway
for someone (not me any longer) who are used to work at an workstation type synth, i guess its just the workflow they like?
but from my workstation days, i remember that there's an amazing speed you can accomplish things at because you are so used to your environment.. and it is so "focused".
but i couldnt work at only workstations because the sound wasnt good enough in the end for the work i do.
i sometimes miss having a workstation, just because they have less features/are more focused than a full daw, it forces you to focus more on the music in a different way.
but from my workstation days, i remember that there's an amazing speed you can accomplish things at because you are so used to your environment.. and it is so "focused".
but i couldnt work at only workstations because the sound wasnt good enough in the end for the work i do.
i sometimes miss having a workstation, just because they have less features/are more focused than a full daw, it forces you to focus more on the music in a different way.
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- KVRAF
- 4229 posts since 9 Apr, 2003 from Right here, in front of my computer...
There are some people who just want a keyboard to switch on an play, or to take to gigs, or for their kids to learn on, or whatever. Hooking up computers and audio interfaces and MIDI interfaces and controllers, and monitors and buying/installing software etc is not what they want to do.
For you, who already have a computer/software environment and are happy working like that - your requirements are different. But your requirements aren't everybody else's requirements too.
There are some people who don't *want* to look into computer screens, they want to hit record and play, and be able to produce/write/compose pieces of music without faffing around with computers and hosts and so on.
So for those, a box of decent enough sounds is perfectly adedquate, convenient, and a selling point.
For you, who already have a computer/software environment and are happy working like that - your requirements are different. But your requirements aren't everybody else's requirements too.
There are some people who don't *want* to look into computer screens, they want to hit record and play, and be able to produce/write/compose pieces of music without faffing around with computers and hosts and so on.
So for those, a box of decent enough sounds is perfectly adedquate, convenient, and a selling point.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 38 posts since 24 Jan, 2008
I understand what you guys are saying. Makes sense.
I still have to wonder, though. Why can't they upgrade the sounds substantially? Some of the sounds are decent enough but most of them are completely laid to waste by what's available in software. Even freeware.
What's preventing them from taking advantage of modern computer tech to produce sounds that can compete with software?
I guess we also have to take price into account as well. I've probably put over $5000 in to software alone and I'm sure KVR has several members who are above the $10,000 mark.
Does something like the Korg Oasys, if fully taken advantage of, compete sound-for-sound with a similarly priced DAW set up?
I still have to wonder, though. Why can't they upgrade the sounds substantially? Some of the sounds are decent enough but most of them are completely laid to waste by what's available in software. Even freeware.
What's preventing them from taking advantage of modern computer tech to produce sounds that can compete with software?
I guess we also have to take price into account as well. I've probably put over $5000 in to software alone and I'm sure KVR has several members who are above the $10,000 mark.
Does something like the Korg Oasys, if fully taken advantage of, compete sound-for-sound with a similarly priced DAW set up?
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- KVRAF
- 5666 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium
Wow, really ?divsaster wrote: The M3 was especially disappointing. Everything sounded so incredibly thin.
I have just spent a good hour with M3 and it sounds sublime !
Lush, fat, dancing, screaming, thin- if you want it to, wavesequenced and out of this world, it's all there. Perhaps the headphones or something else was causing the apparent sound degradation ? There's nothing in software that sounds like M3 ( with its KARMA stuff).
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- KVRAF
- 5666 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium
IMO, there's no need to upgrade anything. The sound data in all top-of-the-line workstations is just great. You will not find freeware that sounds like M3, for example.divsaster wrote: Why can't they upgrade the sounds substantially? Some of the sounds are decent enough but most of them are completely laid to waste by what's available in software. Even freeware.
Again, a misleading statament. If talking about workstation-type keyboards only, all manufacturesr have taken advatage the latest DSP. Korg, for example, was the first to offer trully multitimbral effects, several syntesis types in one synth ( Trinity with its MOSS card, the Triton with the same). Sample expansion, RAM or ROM, hard disk recording, Ribbon controllers....etc.What's preventing them from taking advantage of modern computer tech to produce sounds that can compete with software?
Yamaha weren't behind either, the original Motif allows to use several DSP cads. You could add a VA and FM to its sample only synth engine. Resample the sequencer...etc.
Kawai pressed on with an additive synthesis workstation in K5000W.
Alesis Fusion ( which is now discontinued) has several synthesis engines: VA, sample, FM, PM, hadar disk recording...amazing. Get one while they are still available.
This is just a quick and rough account.
Your softwrae collection will be worth next to nothing in years to come, but a resale value of some of the better keyboards goes higher.I guess we also have to take price into account as well. I've probably put over $5000 in to software alone and I'm sure KVR has several members who are above the $10,000 mark.
Definitely, yes.Does something like the Korg Oasys, if fully taken advantage of, compete sound-for-sound with a similarly priced DAW set up?
Oasys: VA, PM, sample, Karma, hard disk recording, the piano keyboard
, faders, knobs, joystick...takes some beating..I'll have two. 
Yes, you could layer lots of VSTs to get a sound as huge and lush as that produced by Korg's multi setups, but hardaware does it instantly, it's there right at your fingertips, with ZERO latency and CPU drop outs.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 38 posts since 24 Jan, 2008
Good to see an opposing viewpoint. I used my own headphones to audition the different sequencers so that's definitely not the difference. I don't have time to address you point for point right now, but a couple of things that caught my eye were Karma and resale value.
I'm not particularly worried about what my equipment will be worth in the coming years. It's a tool, definitely not an investment.
Karma in an interesting concept and would be ideal for somebody who's looking to make some decent sounds without actually having to PLAY all that well. I have a hard time imagining how Karma would actually help me write a song, though. Then again, I would like to actually be able to play, with my own two hands, any song that I write. Like most things, I guess it's just a matter of preference.
It's not that I'm hating on hardware because I'm software guy. I was prepared to leave the store with a workstation if I had been impressed. But I whole-heartedly disagree with you about the sounds. I didn't hear a single thing that my DAW couldn't beat. That might be subjective too, though.
To each his own, I suppose.
I'm not particularly worried about what my equipment will be worth in the coming years. It's a tool, definitely not an investment.
Karma in an interesting concept and would be ideal for somebody who's looking to make some decent sounds without actually having to PLAY all that well. I have a hard time imagining how Karma would actually help me write a song, though. Then again, I would like to actually be able to play, with my own two hands, any song that I write. Like most things, I guess it's just a matter of preference.
It's not that I'm hating on hardware because I'm software guy. I was prepared to leave the store with a workstation if I had been impressed. But I whole-heartedly disagree with you about the sounds. I didn't hear a single thing that my DAW couldn't beat. That might be subjective too, though.
To each his own, I suppose.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 38 posts since 24 Jan, 2008
On a high end DAW, you'll rarely see these problems. I have to go far out of my way to stress my machine to the point of maxing out the CPU.himalaya wrote: ZERO latency and CPU drop outs.
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- KVRian
- 1097 posts since 27 Nov, 2006
I am a software only guy and I am constantly amazed at the range and quality of sounds that are available in virtual instruments - but I still miss my old Korg T2. Why? Becuase I used to turn it on, pick a patch, play a bit and then hit record to capture my ideas. The sequencer was shockingly simple but I think that helped me to become a better player. If I messed it up, I would go back and play it again.
I'm still trying to get that hardware immediacy in my software setup. I have a Novation Remote SL 61 keyboard that really does help - especially with the latest Automap update but it still isn't a replacement for a hardware workstation. I played an Oasys in a shop and fell in love with it. If only I could afford one! The touchscreen, although hated by some, is a true way of quickly navigating a complex system. I hate using a mouse with music, it doesn't feel natural to me. I am thinking of buying a touchscreen monitor as a way of quickly selecting and editing parameters - I would love to use it with Zebra!
Unless someone wants to donate an Oasys to me?
I'm still trying to get that hardware immediacy in my software setup. I have a Novation Remote SL 61 keyboard that really does help - especially with the latest Automap update but it still isn't a replacement for a hardware workstation. I played an Oasys in a shop and fell in love with it. If only I could afford one! The touchscreen, although hated by some, is a true way of quickly navigating a complex system. I hate using a mouse with music, it doesn't feel natural to me. I am thinking of buying a touchscreen monitor as a way of quickly selecting and editing parameters - I would love to use it with Zebra!
Unless someone wants to donate an Oasys to me?
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- KVRAF
- 5666 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium
Karma is not about writing songs for you.
It's a whole new concept of interaction with midi data.
If you are into ambinet, meditative, dance, trance, downtempo genres you will love it. It can create amazing soundscapes that follow your playing.
I know that Korg has ready made songs in those KARMA-fied multis, but for me its a door to another 'music' dimension with my own patterns. Even the pre-defined ones will rarely sound similar due to all the realtime control imbeded in those knobs. There is nothing on the PC that does it like this, with such ease and style.
The real time aspect of KARMA is not available anywhere.
It's a whole new concept of interaction with midi data.
If you are into ambinet, meditative, dance, trance, downtempo genres you will love it. It can create amazing soundscapes that follow your playing.
I know that Korg has ready made songs in those KARMA-fied multis, but for me its a door to another 'music' dimension with my own patterns. Even the pre-defined ones will rarely sound similar due to all the realtime control imbeded in those knobs. There is nothing on the PC that does it like this, with such ease and style.
The real time aspect of KARMA is not available anywhere.
Fair enough. But that answers your question why some folk would chose a good if expensive hardware workstation.I'm not particularly worried about what my equipment will be worth in the coming years. It's a tool, definitely not an investment.
Yes, if we layer some of the better soundsing VSTs our DAW will sound fantastic, but you forget the main point of a workstation, that it's all there, contained in one convenient box, ready. With your DAW, it takes time, first research, demo this and that, install, sometimes go through installation problems, learn multitude of programs, spend time on forums...etc. So it comes back to the first idea, that of a focused workflow and the immediate action. But it doesn't look good for hardware workstations since they are fast becoming glorified PCs. That's what Oasys is.But I whole-heartedly disagree with you about the sounds. I didn't hear a single thing that my DAW couldn't beat. That might be subjective too, though.
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- KVRian
- 1097 posts since 27 Nov, 2006
Himalya - what Korg do you have that has Karma?
By the way, have you seen the Mediastation by Lionstracs? It has linux as its operating system and uses wine to load all manner of VSTi plugins. Best of both worlds.
Doesn't have Karma, though
By the way, have you seen the Mediastation by Lionstracs? It has linux as its operating system and uses wine to load all manner of VSTi plugins. Best of both worlds.
Doesn't have Karma, though
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- KVRAF
- 5666 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium
Well, I don't. I've been searching to buy a second hand Karma ( it's a Korg Karma that has the Karma engine, oh they make it so confusing ).
But, ever since demoing the new M3, i've been thinking whether to save and get this. I found it simply inspirational, the Drum track is a great idea...each sound has a pre-programmed drum loop, so you can be up and swinging in no time, playing to a groove - if there is a quicker way to get inpiration flowing ( and stay the right side of the law) I want to know.
I always look at things like multiple arpegiators, Karma, pre-programmed this or that, as idea generators, NOT as the way to start-finish a song. Not unless I have my own patterns going. I'm just saying this, as a lot of people think such tools are for those who don't play, but the reverse is true ( for me), a cascading multi layered Karma pattern just makes me wanna play and compose more.
).But, ever since demoing the new M3, i've been thinking whether to save and get this. I found it simply inspirational, the Drum track is a great idea...each sound has a pre-programmed drum loop, so you can be up and swinging in no time, playing to a groove - if there is a quicker way to get inpiration flowing ( and stay the right side of the law) I want to know.
I always look at things like multiple arpegiators, Karma, pre-programmed this or that, as idea generators, NOT as the way to start-finish a song. Not unless I have my own patterns going. I'm just saying this, as a lot of people think such tools are for those who don't play, but the reverse is true ( for me), a cascading multi layered Karma pattern just makes me wanna play and compose more.
Not familiar, will check it out. Many thanks !By the way, have you seen the Mediastation by Lionstracs? It has linux as its operating system and uses wine to load all manner of VSTi plugins. Best of both worlds.
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- KVRAF
- 3476 posts since 9 Apr, 2003 from NE Ohio, USA
Fusion discontinued? bummer... I looked at it in the store several times as a replacement for my Yamaha PSR-2000.
Doug
Doug
Logic is a pretty flower that smells bad - Spock, in "I, Mudd"
For a good time click http://www.belindabedekovic.com/video_fl_en.htm
For a good time click http://www.belindabedekovic.com/video_fl_en.htm
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- KVRian
- 1097 posts since 27 Nov, 2006
I agree about the idea generators, that's where Karma really comes into its own. You can of course create your own Karma programs with Karma-Labs software, the possibilities are endless. You can record the output of the Karma section into the hardware or software sequencer for further tweaking as the basis of a track.
The interesting thing about the Mediastation is that it is literally a computer in a keyboard (a Fatar keyboard too, so very high quality) and can be upgraded in the future quite easily. The guy also does regular updates to the software - and because its linux (with a KDE desktop), you can install any linux software on there (or Reaper via wine), and do updates over the internet.
The downside is that music production on linux has a long way to go to catch up with Windows and Mac. Linux development has been speeding up recently - especially in the graphics world - let's hope that it moves to the audio industry as well.
There is also the Niko and Meko from OpenLabs, which is Windows in a keyboard with a 15" touchscreen monitor at its heart.
The interesting thing about the Mediastation is that it is literally a computer in a keyboard (a Fatar keyboard too, so very high quality) and can be upgraded in the future quite easily. The guy also does regular updates to the software - and because its linux (with a KDE desktop), you can install any linux software on there (or Reaper via wine), and do updates over the internet.
The downside is that music production on linux has a long way to go to catch up with Windows and Mac. Linux development has been speeding up recently - especially in the graphics world - let's hope that it moves to the audio industry as well.
There is also the Niko and Meko from OpenLabs, which is Windows in a keyboard with a 15" touchscreen monitor at its heart.
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- KVRian
- 634 posts since 1 Jul, 2007 from over there
Most hobbyist do not know how to mix or don't have the room to do a good mix. The M3 instruments sound thin individual, but when you start to add more a more instruments to a sequence they sound great.divsaster wrote: Edit: I forgot about one thing. Live performance. So let me rephrase my question. What's the appeal of one of these for a hobbyist musician who does not play live?
Most software romps and synths require some tweaking. Hardware romps= less time mixing and more time composing.
That has been my experience with the Korg Trinity.