What chords to use for D Dorian mode?

[nuffink]

Thanks Nuffink,

Let me see if I understand what you're saying.

I only know basic stuff about theory, this is way over my head.

If I want to play in Dorian I can only really play one chord?


Thanks,

dw

As with so much in music theory, if I give you an absolute answer there will be exceptions.

Basically yes, in a specific major key only one chord will give Dorian tonality. It's the minor chord based upon the second degree of the major scale. But...
You can extend that chord to a minor seventh. You can add any combination of the 9th, 11th or 13th as a tension. You can substitute the sus4 or sus2 based on the second degree and their extended forms. You can play fast and loose with voicings (the minor seventh in first inversion is a 6th etc).
You can also modulate. Miles Davis' "So What" has 16 bars of Dmin7 (D Dorian) followed by 8 bars of Ebmin7 (Eb Dorian) followed by a return for 8 bars of Dmin7.

And I'm sure that's a far from complete list of tricks musicians have use to enliven static harmony.

[MrM]

As with so much in music theory, if I give you an absolute answer there will be exceptions.

Basically yes, in a specific major key only one chord will give Dorian tonality. It's the minor chord based upon the second degree of the major scale. ...

So, if I understand it correctly. It is like how many jazzplayers approach modes: you can play certain modes on certain chords (like Dorian on minor and minor with added notes), and when you change to another chord, you must also change to the appropriate mode.

So a mode goes by a small selection of chords. Thus, when you have some chor progression, you must also have a 'progression' of modes that come together with these chords.

If that is (some how) the case, then I finally get it.

[susiwong]

So, if I understand it correctly. It is like how many jazzplayers approach modes: you can play certain modes on certain chords (like Dorian on minor and minor with added notes), and when you change to another chord, you must also change to the appropriate mode.
So a mode goes by a small selection of chords. Thus, when you have some chor progression, you must also have a 'progression' of modes that come together with these chords.
If that is (some how) the case, then I finally get it.

That's one way of dealing with modes, but certainly not the main idea.
Most often modal playing means the opposite :
playing notes from a single scale (better: mode) over a progression of several compatible chords (ie exclusively made from the notes of that mode).
Check my previous post for more detail.
And don't forget, in the end what counts are not the scales, it's the melodies that move people.
Cheers,
susiwon

[nuffink]

That's one way of dealing with modes, but certainly not the main idea.
Most often modal playing means the opposite :
playing notes from a single scale (better: mode) over a progression of several compatible chords (ie exclusively made from the notes of that mode).

How does that work? Surely the notes of, say, the C Dorian* mode (C D E F G A B) are the same as the notes of, say, the F Lydian Mode (F G A B C D E).
So your compatible chords are exactly the same as every single chord in the major scale. How is this modal?

No. That's just wrong.

MrM, you get it.

* Big oops, should say D Dorian (D E F G A B C). Ta susi.

[susiwong]

Sorry, not wrong !
Sure, D dorian and F lydian both use the notes from C major.
What's different though is the tonal center, the point of reference if you want to call it like that, resulting in a different sequence of intervals and a completely different feel.
That's why modes are less than scales, instead they are "aspects" of a parent scale.
Cheers,
susiwong

[nuffink]

Sorry, not wrong !
Sure, D dorian and F lydian both use the notes from C major.
What's different though is the tonal center, the point of reference if you want to call it like that, resulting in a different sequence of intervals and a completely different feel.
That's why modes are less than scales, instead they are "aspects" of a parent scale.
Cheers,
susiwong

Really? How does that work? How do you establish the dorian tonal centre?

[Hink]

Sorry, not wrong !
Sure, D dorian and F lydian both use the notes from C major.
What's different though is the tonal center, the point of reference if you want to call it like that, resulting in a different sequence of intervals and a completely different feel.
That's why modes are less than scales, instead they are "aspects" of a parent scale.
Cheers,
susiwong

Really? How does that work? How do you establish the dorian tonal centre?

you take a compass and put the point at the start of the mode and stretch the pencil out a little passed the midway point. You make an arc above and below the mode. Then keeping the compass stretched out the same way you put the point of the compass at the end of the mode and do the same. As a result the arcs above will have an intersecting point as will the arcs below. You simply draw a straight line from the intersecting point above through the mode to the intersecting arcs below and you will have the center...really nuffink, that's grade school stuff...you should know that

[susiwong]

Hink,
that's probably the best graphical explanation of music I've heard/seen yet !
Nuffink,
there are many, many ways to do that - this is the art of the composer, really.
Some easy to explain methods, surely not the most elegant examples:
- use a single pedal note, a D in our example, and layer some white-note-triads on top. Improvise over that sequence using white keys exclusively. After some time you will tend to instinctively "rest" your phrases on D, it's starting to feel like home. You're beginning to "hear" dorian even if there is no dm7 chord in sight.
In fact, two major chords one whole step apart played over a pedal note can define a mode clearly.
--- F major and G major over C - C ionian
--- F major and G major over D - D dorian
--- F major and G major over E - E phrygian
--- F major and G major over F - F lydian
--- F major and G major over G - G mixolydian
--- F major and G major over A - A aeolian
--- F major and G major over B - B locrian
Of course this principle works in any key, but let's stick to the "family" of C major atm so we're only dealing with white keys for simplicity's sake.
Out of these modes of the major scale many people in western culture (including me) tend to have problems with "hearing" phrygian, lydian and especially locrian, not the stuff hit singles are made of.
- another (a bit questionable) thing might be to to feature a minor/minor7 chord very prominently, maybe even ending some vocal lines on the root of that chord.
Two famous examples :
Sultans Of Swing (D aeolian mostly) - nobody would define that song as F major, D (minor) is the tonal center here without doubt.
Oye Como Va (A dorian) - tonal center A, no doubt


Until tomorrow, need a cup of good strong coffee and a bed now.
Cheers,
susiwong

[jc21161]

Does anybody have any input on different specific chord combinations to different songs, real or imaginary in D Dorian. There is the probably worn out Dm7, G7, Cmaj7, 2 5 1 (II V I), for an example. Is playing G7 & Cmaj7 a different way of playing Dm7, about? Some plain language ideas on possible chord combinations while taken into account maybe the use of the more basic power cords, would be greatly appreciated also.
A free sheet music web site that can be searched by criteria of a particular scale, mold and key may give very good ideas on chord combinations for good modal stability, anybody know of one that may work that way? I will try and type Dorian in any web sites search box, and see what happens, if no one has a particular site to try to maybe save me some hours of searching.
Thanks for all the ingenious advice so far, you all.

[tuttlem]

That's the whole creative aspect of exploring modes when writing music.

Develop your own triads (to begin with) using the notes of D dorian and being playing around with the scale in question. If triads are a bit too much to work with, start with a pedal note. Let the root note (D) ring whilst improv'ing over the modal notes.

I find it most effective to change modes at different points thoughout a song to (attempt to) dictate mood.

My $0.02

[bagginz]

Specific progressions?

The progression: Dm / G maj (ad infinitum) is the basis for many a tune and always screams dorian to me...

The D min can be (m6 m7 or m9) the G maj triad or dominant ( b7 9, 13)

(btw don't resolve to Cmaj , if you do then you are most definitely in C )

Another old chestnut, perhaps more purely modal because of the pedalled D: Dmin G/D

Or, (also caned to death): Dmin G/D C/D Dmin

Best wishes,
bagginz