Electric guitar library (rock/metal rhythm) - thoughts?

[zircon]

If you were looking for a sample library (multisamples, not loops) to realistically reproduce metal/rock-style rhythm guitar riffs, what sort of features would you like to see? An open-ended question, I know, but I don't want to limit your answers.

I think this is a type of library that has still not truly been represented. Prominy LPC is great, but enormous and very expensive. Lyrical Distortion has been discontinued. DirectGuitar is good but may not potentially have all the features one would want.

[nasenmann]

hi zircon

-clean samples for flexibility

-Round Robin for everything

-a range of muted sounds from slightly muted to hardly tonal

Also, I prefer keeping it simple, i.e. I'd try to fit the basic different playing styles into one patch and control it with velocity changes or the modwheel. Like playing muted sounds at lower velocity registers.



That's it for me, more advanced stuff like slides and hammer-ons/pull-offs would be cool, but might be overkill for just a riff machine. As long as you can do some Thrash Metal type riffs with it and avoid the machine gun effect, all's good.

[zircon]

Very cool, thank you for the input. Those are all excellent suggestions.

Let me ask you this; how would you want hammer-ons and pull-offs to be implemented? Would you want that to be integrated with Kontakt scripting somehow, or would you just want to see them as an additional patch/articulation?

[Chester Desmond]

Especially for metal purposes I would like to have

-a velocity activated tremolo\rapid up-down picking articulation which would allow you to hold a key down and have it repeat as long as the key is held down...with a way (individual keyswitches)to control the speed (ie 1/4 host tempo, 1/8 host tempo etc...like an arpeggiator)
-a keyswitch for up stroke when key is released...for nice easy jug-jugging
-somehow implement triplets and other picking techniques (muted mostly)
-hammer and pulloff to from\to open string (more of a specialty thing than a must-have)
-actual samples down-tuned to D and C
-I very much agree that the samples should be clean for maximum flexibility.

I find that it is nearly impossible, largely due to my limitations as a keyboardist but also physically, to play the intricate riffs of thrash and other extreme metal which utilize the E string so much. Especially once you get into fast trem picking and galloping type rhythms. Try to pull off some of the picking on Metallica's Master of Puppets with a sample library!

I haven't played too many existing products so my suggestions should be taken as an uninformed wishlist and it may be possible for a good keyboardist\piano roller to achieve some of these techniques as far as I am aware.

[zircon]

Interesting idea on the tremolo picking, might be hard to sync to tempo simply because (according to several guitarists I've spoken with) that kind of picking in metal is basically "as fast as possible" rather than to a specific tempo. However, it's an important technique regardless so I think it is worth including.

What did you mean by "triplets and other picking techniques"? Can you be more specific on that? It seems to be that triplets can be done by simply sequencing triplets (or playing them) but maybe we're thinking of two separate things.

Keep the comments coming folks... even if you think your wishes are unrealistic! Feel free to post MP3 examples too.

[nasenmann]

Let me ask you this; how would you want hammer-ons and pull-offs to be implemented? Would you want that to be integrated with Kontakt scripting somehow, or would you just want to see them as an additional patch/articulation?

Keyswitching is probably the way to go.

I just checked out Prominy LPC; Seems one of its few drawbacks is that almost every single articulation is done in a different patch. But then I watched a video that showcases the Super Performance Multi for LPC...very impressive. Heavy use of keyswitching, and proof that it's actually playable in a live situation (though it requires a lot of practice for sure).


@Chester's post:

The thing to get right about triplets are the up/downstrokes:

1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3
d u d u d u d u d u d u


About up/downstrokes in general:

I'm not sure about how important up/downstrokes are when you're just hitting single notes, but you can imagine that it's important for power chords and the like because of the short latency between the strings being hit (and because the first string that's being hit is probably hit a bit harder than the 2nd).
For example, some Metal guitarists, like James Hetfield, prefer only playing downstrokes because it sounds a bit heavier and machine-like.

I guess you could solve this by simply recording power chord strokes in both directions or by simulating this with single notes and scripting. Though I'm not sure how much of the authentic sound is lost when you do it with scripting.

Needless to say, I'm not an expert at all, just a regular guitar player.





Oh, be sure to include tremolo picking Paul Gilbert Style.

[zircon]

LPC does have a pretty cool performance patch, but I know some people that have that product and it's definitely hard to use, as you said. The usage I hear from most people that have it is not as impressive as the site demos.

For the triplets, I'm still not sure I understand. Can you show me an MP3 example of this playing technique? Can't a user replicate it by simply playing triplets on the keyboard? The D/U alternation will happen by default there anyway.

[nasenmann]

Can't a user replicate it by simply playing triplets on the keyboard? The D/U alternation will happen by default there anyway.

Sure, that works in theory, the thing is that simply alternating between D/U isn't flexible at all. look at this riff:

Code: Select all

 1 . 2 . 3 . 4 . 1 . 2 . 3 . 4 . 
-2-2---2---2-2---2-2---2---2-2---
-2-2---2---2-2---2-2---2---2-2---
-0-0---0---0-0---0-0---0---0-0---
 d u   u   u d   d u   u   u d

that'd be the natural way to play it. how to make this work with a system that just alternates between D/U? For straight triplet playing all the way through, it'd work, but what if you skip a note?
So you have to think of something else like MW or KS. Chester's suggestion to play an upstroke when you release the key is also good, but for syncopated d/u riffs, you need something else.

Maybe there's a way to make it dependent on the host's timing? Like, when the note played is a syncope, make it play the upstroke sample?

[zircon]

Oh, I see what you mean now. I plan on addressing this by having a wide range of performance patches. So, you will be able to load a patch that is round robin downstrokes only in the lower octaves of the keyboard. Then, you load another patch - on the same MIDI channel - which has upstrokes only, but in the upper octaves. This way you can use your left and right hands to alternate between up/down, or just use down picking, etc.

[kevvvvv]

zircon ... if you're really keen on getting Prominy, you could try writing privately to him and nicely making an offer

Many small studio owners/samplists are open to this type of suggestion, especially if they've just got a monthly bill in.

If you've got the disk space and can't play guitar then Prominy is nice.

Good luck

[zircon]

I am not interested in LPC... I am developing my own library because I think I can do a better job for clean electric guitar geared towards a certain style. I like the concept of LPC but their performance setup is not intuitive, it is very large, very expensive, and lacks a level of depth in certain areas that I (and I think other people) want. It also has a lot of lead-focused content which I am not interested in.

[Chester Desmond]

around a minute into this video there is a good example of the triplets I am talking about:



when you compare live playing with manual\step entry there is a fairly big difference in what you can do. There are probably lots of people who can play the keyboard fast enough to pull off some of the metal picking and riffing but I think a lot of the faster, more intricate things might be better as performance elements. Depends a lot on your market I guess and what you are trying to achieve. Take some black metal stuff where they are playing 4 and 5 note chords in a trem picking style at very quick speeds; trying to hit 32nd notes at 200 bpm with a keyboard chord sounds near impossible to me, but have a trem articulation where you are holding a chord down and it is playing the up\down at 8 times the host tempo, it may sound good.
Again, I have not played too many guitar libraries, but the demos I've seen and the ones I have played don't really sound good when played fast, although with some attack and legato adjustments they might sound great.

[zircon]

Ah, OK, I see what you mean. We'll do our best to make sure that kind of technique is represented in this library

[Architeuthis]

Why are you limiting yourself to "metal/rock-style"? If you simply add a much-needed palm mute (is that what it's called?), you could include reggae too.

you know.. the STRUM--SLAP STRUM--SLAP

Edit: All you have to do is have mute samples as release samples for each string (probably keyswitching those release samples on and off -- or create a new "program")

[zircon]

Because rock/metal hasn't been done well yet, in my opinion. There are several libraries that can do convincing strumming/chords however, eg. Chris Hein Guitars.