help needed: record one note for me, please

[dacaumodo]

Hi there folks

I'm having weird issues with Poly-ana VSTi, and energyXT 1.4 (although not exclusively); I'm trying to rule out the possibility that it might come from my usb controller, an Edirol PCR-M30.

So if you have another controller and could do the following for me, I'd be very grateful:

In eXT 1.4, record one MIDI note, one bar long, with pitch bend full up then back to 'normal', then modwhell full up then back to 'normal'. Use whichever synth you want to record, I don't think it makes a difference, I'll change it to Poly-ana for my test.

That's all. PM me if you want to tell me how to retrieve the ext project file.

thanks!

[Mighty Pea]

I can't help you with the recording, but wasn't there a topic on pitchbend problems with Poly-ana just recently? Also, what's the issue you're having, and when you say it's not 'exclusively' poly-ana and xt, what's the constant?

[djsubject]

http://skirize.bounceme.net/1noteonly.ext

what happens if you draw in the midi data?

Subz

[dacaumodo]

Yes there was another post. I'm trying to make sense of what's happening.

First I thought it was a Poly-ana / eXT problem; then I had trouble with other DAWs too (Tracktion and Reaper).

And now it seems like I can only reproduce the bug eXT 1.4 (!). Rather weird.

But at least, in eXT, it never works correctly. Somehow this is a comforting thought.

Basically, pitchwheel doesn't do what it should when recorded and played back in eXT 1.4 - I get random pitch.

The problem is MOSTLY when playing back a clip recorded with pitchwheel action, BUT I've also had problem when playing 'live': letting pitchwheel go back to center didn't let note go back to initial pitch; and similar results were obtained with the modwheel.

It seems (?) like Poly-ana is not receiving CC messages correctly on my setup.

So I thought, maybe it has to do with my midi controller (perhaps it's a silly theory, I don't know), hence my request.

This is driving me slightly mad because

a. I can't for the life of me imagine the reason for this;

b. the bugs do not occur systematically so I can't say for sure whether it's a problem occuring with Poly-ana only in eXT, or in other DAWs too, as appeared to be the case a few days ago but apparently no longer(!);

c. I seem to be the only one with the problem, so it's going to be difficult for the dev to find a fix;

d. I love the sound of this synth and really want to get on and use it!

[dacaumodo]

http://skirize.bounceme.net/1noteonly.ext

what happens if you draw in the midi data?

Subz

Thanks a lot mate.

Here's what I get with a simple Polyana preset, pitchwheel range being set to +/-12 semitones (with what you recorded, I should get one octave up then one full octave down then back to initial pitch):

http://vimcortez.free.fr/tracks/1noteon ... ounced.mp3

Apparently I can't draw the pitchbend automation directly from scratch in a clip, I can only modify one that's been recorded with a controller.

Now if I use an enveloppe track, draw an enveloppe equivalent to pitchwheel full up then down, etc., and route it to the pitchwheel function on Poly-ana, choosing 6 as CC#, I get normal pitchwheel playback.

Is there normally a CC# attributed to pitchwheel ? Or is it just a reserved "channel"?

It looks more and more like the CC messages get tangled somewhere along the way.

[djsubject]

http://skirize.bounceme.net/1noteonly.ext

just in case you missed it

Subz

[dacaumodo]

Just done an interesting experiment (yes I know, I'm going insane).

I recorded one note, having routed Poly-ana's pitchwheel function to cc74 on my controller. I used the cc74 knob to go one octave up then down, etc. No problem when playing back. Clean octave up then down.

Without changing anything, I then recorded the same note and reproduced the same pitch action with the midi controller's pitchwheel this time: chaos.

I think pitchwheel and modwheel are "hardwired" controllers, and looks like that's what Poly-ana has trouble with, at least in eXT1.4, and at least on my setup.

[SWTrex]

dacaumodo -

Just a couple of notes and observations:

Pitch wheel messages and CC messages are separate and different. You can often assign a synth pitch wheel input to a CC, as you did, but normally the pitch wheel message from a controller is a different kind of midi data.

That said, pitch wheel messages have higher resolution than CC data, per the midi spec. I believe CC messages are 7-bit (0-127) while pitch wheel messages are 14-bit (0-16383).

Does it make any difference whether your pitch wheel movement is fast or slow? Maybe there's something about the pitch wheel resolution that creates the problem for some systems. (Try recording a very slow pitch wheel movement and see if the behavior is the same).

SWTrex

[dacaumodo]

dacaumodo -

Just a couple of notes and observations:

Pitch wheel messages and CC messages are separate and different. You can often assign a synth pitch wheel input to a CC, as you did, but normally the pitch wheel message from a controller is a different kind of midi data.

That said, pitch wheel messages have higher resolution than CC data, per the midi spec. I believe CC messages are 7-bit (0-127) while pitch wheel messages are 14-bit (0-16383).

Does it make any difference whether your pitch wheel movement is fast or slow? Maybe there's something about the pitch wheel resolution that creates the problem for some systems. (Try recording a very slow pitch wheel movement and see if the behavior is the same).

SWTrex

Thanks SWTrex, I'll try what you suggest. However, I must add that other soft synths on the very same machine don't have the same pitchwheel problem.

[SWTrex]

dacaumodo -

Just a couple of notes and observations:

Pitch wheel messages and CC messages are separate and different. You can often assign a synth pitch wheel input to a CC, as you did, but normally the pitch wheel message from a controller is a different kind of midi data.

That said, pitch wheel messages have higher resolution than CC data, per the midi spec. I believe CC messages are 7-bit (0-127) while pitch wheel messages are 14-bit (0-16383).

Does it make any difference whether your pitch wheel movement is fast or slow? Maybe there's something about the pitch wheel resolution that creates the problem for some systems. (Try recording a very slow pitch wheel movement and see if the behavior is the same).

SWTrex

Thanks SWTrex, I'll try what you suggest. However, I must add that other soft synths on the very same machine don't have the same pitchwheel problem.

I understand. It may be that Poly-Ana, for some reason, has a hard time keeping up with a high rate of incoming pitch bend messages (because of the high resolution) and goes haywire as a result.

If I recall correctly, eXT1.4 has a feature to thin out data (CC or pitch bend)in the piano roll editor. If you have a high frequency of pitch bend messages, you might try thinning them out using this feature and see if it makes a difference.

SWTrex

[dacaumodo]

dacaumodo -

Just a couple of notes and observations:

Pitch wheel messages and CC messages are separate and different. You can often assign a synth pitch wheel input to a CC, as you did, but normally the pitch wheel message from a controller is a different kind of midi data.

That said, pitch wheel messages have higher resolution than CC data, per the midi spec. I believe CC messages are 7-bit (0-127) while pitch wheel messages are 14-bit (0-16383).

Does it make any difference whether your pitch wheel movement is fast or slow? Maybe there's something about the pitch wheel resolution that creates the problem for some systems. (Try recording a very slow pitch wheel movement and see if the behavior is the same).

SWTrex

Thanks SWTrex, I'll try what you suggest. However, I must add that other soft synths on the very same machine don't have the same pitchwheel problem.

I understand. It may be that Poly-Ana, for some reason, has a hard time keeping up with a high rate of incoming pitch bend messages (because of the high resolution) and goes haywire as a result.

If I recall correctly, eXT1.4 has a feature to thin out data (CC or pitch bend)in the piano roll editor. If you have a high frequency of pitch bend messages, you might try thinning them out using this feature and see if it makes a difference.

SWTrex

Will do. Thanks.

[dacaumodo]

@ SWTrex :

I tried recording a very slow pitchwheel movement (same phrase as before, but much, much more slowly), as you suggested: I get correct pitch behaviour on playback!

We might be on the right track then.

I haven't found a function to thin out CC data stream yet, though. Will dig deeper.

Thanks a lot for your suggestions SWTrex.

d

[dacaumodo]

BTW I'm taking back this discussion to its "initial" thread, for clarity's sake:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 84#3046584

I'll see you guys there if you want to know the rest of the story

[AdmiralQuality]

Is there normally a CC# attributed to pitchwheel ? Or is it just a reserved "channel"?

No, pitchbend is it's own message, unique from all the other control change (CC) messages. Mod wheel is a CC however, CC#1. The pitchbend message has a much higher resolution than the 128 values supported by all the other controllers. (There's a way CC controllers can have higher resolution too but very few devices or software support it.)

No new ideas... though I'm pretty sure it's not happening at the MIDI level. I think it's in the voice... otherwise it would happen no matter where you set the bend range to.

Keep the observations coming. Helps!