What is the Double Augmented Cmaj?

[PaulSC]

I've never heard of a double augmented chord. I've heard of a double augmented scale though, and I think it goes in C: C D# E G Ab B C

That's a reasonable name for this scale in the sense that it consists of two disjunct, interlocked augmented triads:

Code: Select all

C   E   G#
  D#  G   B 

[nuffink]

I've never heard of a double augmented chord. I've heard of a double augmented scale though, and I think it goes in C: C D# E G Ab B C

This is a symmetrical scale of alternating m2 - m3. I don't know of a specific name for it, but there's a zillion sites out there with people making up names for scales without checking any references, so it might be called anything. I think I'd prefer m3/m2 scale, or m2/m3 scale I suppose. There's a program out there called "Scala" that can tell you a lot about these things.

Cheers,
Steve

Mostly it's just called the hexatonic scale, occaisionally the Symmetric Augmented. It has two modes, the first (semitone-minor third) was called Truncated Mode 3 by Messiaen and Prometheus by Liszt. The second (minor third-semitone) has been called Messiaen truncated mode 3 inverse, Major Augmented, Genus Tertium and Raga Devamani (amongst other things no doubt).

It's one of the seven "Pressing scales" which underlie western tonal music.

[geroyannis]

It's one of the seven "Pressing scales" which underlie western tonal music.

I'm sorry English is not my first language, what do you mean by "Pressing" and which are the other six?

[nuffink]

It's one of the seven "Pressing scales" which underlie western tonal music.

I'm sorry English is not my first language, what do you mean by "Pressing" and which are the other six?

They're called Pressing scales after Dr Jeff Pressing who first pointed out their unique characteristics. They are...

Major
Melodic Minor (ascending)/Jazz Minor
Harmonic Minor
Harmonic Major
Octatonic (the common one with the H-W and W-H diminshed as its modes)
Whole Tone
and the Hexatonic in the above post

[geroyannis]

Ha, I didn't realize that Pressing is a name. Thanks for the info!

[jancivil]

it might be a number of things. it's bad nomenclature, you won't get any consensus on such a chord name.
best guess, egbert said it:

the person might mean it has an aug 5 and an aug 9.
c e g# (b) d#

who knows, fire the person what done it.

ALSO:
calling a specific construction by such a general name as hexatonic, which means only that a scale has six tones, is also really bad nomenclature, same problem of lack of clarity.
IE:
a raga, whatever its basis, might have a hexatonic and a heptatonic extension, even if it's generally considered a pentatonic tune.

*raga*, BTW, is also a lot more than a mode, it's a whole series of ways to treat a series of tones, involving specific formations, turns, complex ornametations, things to seriously proscribe in it: note successions that are 'nivadi' IE: illegal... in an extemporaneous treatment... ad infinitum...
demoting 'a raga' [which is made to evoke a very specific rasa, even an intension of affect, or a physical reaction, bring rain...], whatever its name or scalar bases, to 'the hexatonic scale', and comparing it to a given western 'scale', no matter what, is so wholly incorrect as to boggle the imagination.

[nuffink]

it might be a number of things. it's bad nomenclature, you won't get any consensus on such a chord name.
best guess, egbert said it:

the person might mean it has an aug 5 and an aug 9.
c e g# (b) d#

who knows, fire the person what done it.

ALSO:
calling a specific construction by such a general name as hexatonic, which means only that a scale has six tones, is also really bad nomenclature, same problem of lack of clarity.
IE:
a raga, whatever its basis, might have a hexatonic and a heptatonic extension, even if it's generally considered a pentatonic tune.

*raga*, BTW, is also a lot more than a mode, it's a whole series of ways to treat a series of tones, involving specific formations, turns, complex ornametations, things to seriously proscribe in it: note successions that are 'nivadi' IE: illegal... in an extemporaneous treatment... ad infinitum...
demoting 'a raga' [which is made to evoke a very specific rasa, even an intension of affect, or a physical reaction, bring rain...], whatever its name or scalar bases, to 'the hexatonic scale', and comparing it to a given western 'scale', no matter what, is so wholly incorrect as to boggle the imagination.

If you find comparing two scales with the same notes (regardless of their usage) boggles your imagination, maybe you should get out a bit more.

[jancivil]

it might be a number of things. it's bad nomenclature, you won't get any consensus on such a chord name.
best guess, egbert said it:

the person might mean it has an aug 5 and an aug 9.
c e g# (b) d#

who knows, fire the person what done it.

ALSO:
calling a specific construction by such a general name as hexatonic, which means only that a scale has six tones, is also really bad nomenclature, same problem of lack of clarity.
IE:
a raga, whatever its basis, might have a hexatonic and a heptatonic extension, even if it's generally considered a pentatonic tune.

*raga*, BTW, is also a lot more than a mode, it's a whole series of ways to treat a series of tones, involving specific formations, turns, complex ornametations, things to seriously proscribe in it: note successions that are 'nivadi' IE: illegal... in an extemporaneous treatment... ad infinitum...
demoting 'a raga' [which is made to evoke a very specific rasa, even an intension of affect, or a physical reaction, bring rain...], whatever its name or scalar bases, to 'the hexatonic scale', and comparing it to a given western 'scale', no matter what, is so wholly incorrect as to boggle the imagination.

If you find comparing two scales with the same notes (regardless of their usage) boggles your imagination, maybe you should get out a bit more.

you didn't read what I wrote, or you don't have the background to understand it. your lack of understanding (which I can only guess is down to a basis in theory outside of actual practice) in making such assertions in this board, I gotta say, adds up to a boggle for me. You are consistent, I'll give you that.

you equivocated a chord and by extension one of Messian's treatments of a abstract symmetrical mode, with an entire form of composition.
BTW, the technical term for what you called the raga (arguably you can call it a parent of the raga, if you are an academic person removed from the actual practice) is the THAT, aka as the modal basis for the actual form itself.

there are reasons behind the choices of those notes in a raga or a working towards a raga which have no such equivalent in western music, and it is by no means abstract; they always work towards the dominant notes of the given that. it's just a that until these criteria are established. there are a lot of things that have to happen before you give it the name:

Raga Devamani.
What time of day do you play this raga?? et cetera...

[nuffink]

Ok. So if I call it, say, "the scale that is used for a Raga Hemavati" or "the scale that is used for a Mela Kosalam" will that satisfy you?

It seems a bit wordy to me, but I'm always happy to oblige.






edit:- "the scale that is used for a Raga Hemavati" and "the scale that is used for a Mela Kosalam" are used at random here and no relation to any scale (living or dead) is implied.

I thought I should get that out of the way before jan tells me that a Raga Hemavati can only be performed on shiva's birthday in the presence of 13 cows and a blind swami.

[A.M. Gold]

This seems to be turning into something akin to a musical engineering argument thread.

[nuffink]

Oh, and by the way, what is this sentence...

you equivocated a chord and by extension one of Messian's treatments of a abstract symmetrical mode, with an entire form of composition.

... supposed to mean? I'd probably respond to it if I could understand it.

Has it been through babelfish or some other kind of computer translation?

[Musicologo]

It's easy:

Pick up 2 augmented chords (major chords with #5). The tonic and dominant, for instance:

D-F#-A#

A-C#-E#

Now you just order the notes from the tonic:

D - E# - F# - A - A# - C# - D

You now can redorder them to make a NEW chord, using the 2 augmented fifths - the A# and the E#.

In this case, D - F# - A# - C# - E# - (A*)

It sounds really like a maj7 chord with add#5 and add#9.

*Optional note. It's the 5th of the chord thrown out an octave higher to not colide with the augmented fifth.

[Kevin Doyle]

Makes me wonder if someone has cooked up a dubious name for C7#9#5 - a dominant type chord with an augmented fifth and an augmented ninth.

Yes. I use Fb+maj7#11/C all the time. I was baffled by this type of chord for years because most arrangers label it C7#9#5. Now I understand the conventional description is theoretically incorrect because it is based on a C diminished whole tone scale: C-Db-Eb-Fb-Gb-Ab-Bb-C.
The root position chord is stacked C-Fb-Ab-Bb-Eb. The Fb "sounds like" the third but it is the diminished 4th tone in the scale. The Eb "sounds like" a #9 but it is not a #9 and also does not function as a minor third.

[Kevin Doyle]

..VicDiesel is right, it would be Gdoublesharp, which has an enharmonic equivalent of A - however the theory is shot if you call it 'A', since that it no longer related to the fifth, and you are playing a submediant minor in first inversion.

I've never come across a 'double augmented' chord - wouldn't that affect the third as well, giving C - E# - Gx? I can't think of any musical reason for doing a double augmentation... altho' it would give you the bonus of C#++ being C# - Ex - Gx# (triple sharp )

DSP

While analyzing scales in ethnic, classical, pop, jazz, and gospel genres, I have noticed a similar chord which I call a “double augmented triad” because it contains 2 augmented tones consisting of 1, +3, +5. I find it very useful because I needed a way to describe this chord which exists diatonically in 7-note diminished and other exotic scales.
This is an example from a C whole-half diminished scale which has the second tone missing (C-D#-E#-F#-G#-A-B-C): The first chord in this scale is C-E#-G#, which I call a "C double augmented triad". (It is definitely not the same as the 'double augmented Cmaj' that started this thread.)

[Kevin Doyle]

Is it C-E-A?
As you see I know only little theory, so any help would be great.

Regarding the original subject of this thread:
The double augmented Cmaj chord is built with Root = C, maj 3 = E, Doubly Augmented 5th = G##.
G## is used instead of A because unless otherwise specified, the label ‘aug’ or ‘+’ raises the note a fifth above the root which is G, not A, and in this case the G is raised twice.
A doubly augmented 5th forces the top 4 notes of the scale to be a cluster of 4 chromatic notes: G##-A#-B-C. Here is one example of a scale that could be built with C double augmented major as the tonic chord: C-D-E-F#-G##-A#-B-C