equalinterval.com vs. dick grove [old thread bumped; see bottom of page 1]

[erichzann]

I am really sick of piecing together an understanding of music theory with huge holes in it and am seriously thinking of taking the plunge and spending a couple thousand dollars for a well laid out, at home education. I have looked at equalinterval.com and dick grove's See it, Hear it, Play it. Both are pretty expensive. Dick Groves stuff just looks like very well thought out more traditional study. The equalinterval system is hard to find out ANY information on. It is also the more expensive of the two. There are several steps to the entire program, each of which will end up costing thousands of dollars because it's all done through private lessons. but you could just do the first couple parts with significant benefit from what I understand. (I am just caving to marketing hype?) It is supposed to be a completely different way of approaching theory and I am somewhat intrigued. It would probably be easier to get a handle on a traditional way of looking at theory after studying that I'm guessing. I'd say, just like someone else said on this forum, that it was a scam except that people like herbie hancock have such good things to say about it. I'm not a jazz fan, but herbie hancock sure as hell knows what he is doing as far as theory. Also, is there another forum anyone would recommend I ask about this on?

Thanks

[luxth]

I studied EIS for a short while and i know many buddies who come from it.

All I can tell is that is a pretty fresh approach, and is a nice tool a musician can have.

To know more details about EIS you can ask to graduate Craig Sharmat on Vicontrol.net forum, where there is a board dedicated to this method.

Luca

[gravehill]

Same here. I'm on hiatus from EIS at the moment but hope to continue at some point when money and time allow. I have done books 1 & 2 so far, and although they are just the very basics of the system, there is some stuff that I actively use on my everyday work.

The one gripe I have with EIS is that a lot of the examples you can hear from web are jazz and other stuff that doesn't interest me much personally. The system isn't tied in a certain music style in any way but it seems it has gained more popularity among jazzers than any other group.

[Sharmy]

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EIS is not a scam but it is not a cheap solution either.
Realize that teachers like David Blumberg are arranging shows like American Idol so the 65 bucks an hour (lessons usually go longer) is not a huge finacial boom for him. That said it does not make it less expensive for you, and the course to an up and comer is not inexpensive.

The Grove course has been around for years and was part of the now defunct Grove School. Many people liked the course back in the day and some may still. Again if you need private lessons then they just wont be inexpensive because some ones time is being used.

My guess is both approaches will wield great results if the student is truly motivated. The hardest thing about any method is persistence to keep going. It is not only tough mentally but continues to be a drain on the pocketbook. That said EIS has paid for itself for me many times over.

Craig Sharmat

www.scoredog.tv (http://www.scoredog.tv)

[llatham]

I'm not a jazz fan, but herbie hancock sure as hell knows what he is doing as far as theory. Also, is there another forum anyone would recommend I ask about this on?

Thanks

As a Theory Professor at a somewhat respectable university, I am always suspect of various online courses. Obviously though, there are some good ones out there, and it's likely a "you get what you pay for" scenario. I have known students for example that have done online Berklee courses (for Finale, etc.). They've been really happy with the education they've received.

However - and I might be in the minority - I would suggest looking into courses at a decent college or university if one is available to you, especially if you are looking for a more "traditional" style theory - that is, more about Common Practice Era than the Jazz era. You can take courses, or study privately with a professor (under the umbrella of composition lessons for example).

I think many people - as students especially - have had bad experiences in theory classes. I blame this on a couple of things - first, theory is typically boring to begin with. If you get an instructor who lacks the ability to show students how what they're studying can be relevant in many genres, that compounds the issue. Secondly, many students are unprepared for the demands of a theory course (compounded by the "why do I need this again?" factor) and perform poorly, and thus become frustrated. Finally, some students think that all theory is "jazz theory" or "rock theory" or don't expect it to be about Bach et al, and as a result, the course does not meet their expectations and again they become frustrated having taken a course they'll do poorly in.

Fortunately, it sounds as if you're past that point and if you were to study theory, it sounds like you will be doing so because you want to, and you understand that in order to do so, you will have to settle for being presented with the material in an pedagogical manner.

I want to also point out that there are many jazz players who know quite a bit about theory, but haven't studied formally - the style itself demands a certain amount of mastery of various theory concepts. And of course, there are successful musicians who know little about "real theory" -they know how to make chords and all of that of course, but they don't think of that as "theory" in the same way as "describe the way a German Augmented 6th chord is used to produce an enharmonic modulation".

So it can depend on what focus you desire. I have found that - in general now - jazz theory tends to focus on those things that are practical to PLAYING jazz music, and to a lesser degree, composition and even lesser, analysis. And - in general - "Academic" (for lack of a better term) theory tends to focus on ANALYSIS of largely classical music and other styles to which it applies, and less so to composing, and even less to performing (I run a recital hall and meet people like John Nakamatsu, Paul Badura-Skoda, members of Chanticleer, etc.) and I can tell you that they very often could care less about any enharmonic modulations occurring in the music - they basically play the notes as written. Jazz artists (like John Abercrombie, Frank Foster, etc.) on the other hand know much more "theory" (though they don't necessarily think of it as theory) and can tell you what modes they're playing and so forth, but still often have no formal academic training in "academic" or "jazz" theory other than personal experience.


Courses at a college or private lessons could cost you far less, and in some cases, you can self pace.

So just another option to consider.

HTH,
Steve

[nuffink]

I studied EIS for a short while and i know many buddies who come from it.

Same here. I'm on hiatus from EIS at the moment but hope to continue at some point when money and time allow

EIS is not a scam but it is not a cheap solution either.

Anybody fancy giving a brief summary of the Equal Interval System?

[geekboy]

I studied EIS for a short while and i know many buddies who come from it.

Same here. I'm on hiatus from EIS at the moment but hope to continue at some point when money and time allow

EIS is not a scam but it is not a cheap solution either.

Anybody fancy giving a brief summary of the Equal Interval System?

Sure...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all intervals are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable sounds, that among these are Consonance, Dissonance, and the Pursuit of the Great Hit Single.

[nuffink]

Thanks.

Anybody else?

[luxth]

Hi, I think you can find some useful info at http://www.equalinterval.com under the section "Equal Interval System".

Luca

[Sharmy]

In response to llatham EIS was never an online course until recently. The course was taught only as one on one mostly by Spud Lyle Murphy and now mostly by David Blumberg. People had heard about the course through the grapevine or had listened to people who used it and wanted that info too. The only way to get it to those people was online though in years past it was done sometimes by mail! Sometimes to South America! It is now taught at Pasadena City College here in LA for quite a few years running but having attended those classes things move a little quickly i feel to be totally comprehended.

Anyway I think llatham's post is a fair response. Certainly a less expensive one and one that lines up with traditional study. One thing to consider though is since EIS comes at a different angle from traditional harmony it can get you to places traditional harmony can't and do it quickly. It also gives answers to traditional harmony questions and 20th century harmony in one succinct method without having to take a separate course for different techniques. On the other hand there have been no treatments of how techniques relate to traditional score study so the student needs to learn the course and do that leg work on his own. To me that is an important point.

[erichzann]

Thanks to everyone for the informative replies (and, the summary from geekboy)

The one gripe I have with EIS is that a lot of the examples you can hear from web are jazz and other stuff that doesn't interest me much personally. The system isn't tied in a certain music style in any way but it seems it has gained more popularity among jazzers than any other group.

I am also not the biggest jazz fan (I'm really, really, sorry jazz fans, but most of it just sounds the same to me (in most cases, Miles Davis from the late 60's early seventies is killer though)). That being said, I've look at a few jazz progressions and been suprised and interested because of the the way some chords use dissonant intervals like augmented 5ths... but somehow, it doesn't sound dissonant or "dark" for lack of a better way of putting it, because of the way it's worked into the progression. If I use chords like that, it just sounds dark and strange because of the progressions my ear leads me to around those chords. Don't get me wrong, I love that sometimes, but I'd like to learn to actually choose whether that happens or not instead of being "lead". I'm very interested in learning to change the mood of a piece at will. I hope I have worded this clearly.

[/quote]Realize that teachers like David Blumberg are arranging shows like American Idol so the 65 bucks an hour (lessons usually go longer) is not a huge finacial boom for him. That said it does not make it less expensive for you, and the course to an up and comer is not inexpensive.

This is actually encouraging to know that this may just be something the teachers do because they believe in it. I actually emailed David a few weeks ago and he was very helpful but I had a kind of family emergency and told him I had to hold off on making the decision for a bit. I'm really getting interested in the system at this point.

However - and I might be in the minority - I would suggest looking into courses at a decent college or university if one is available to you, especially if you are looking for a more "traditional" style theory - that is, more about Common Practice Era than the Jazz era. You can take courses, or study privately with a professor (under the umbrella of composition lessons for example).

I thought about this but am far less excited about it for a few reasons. I actually took a class a few years ago and was bored to death (granted, I'm less immature now) but since then I have learned quite a bit and am afraid that in a class setting I would be paying to hear alot that I already knew. I think less expensive in this case might actually be less bang for the buck. It is also not self paced most likely. And, lastly, GAS money would shoot the potential savings in the foot. (I'm 45 min to an hour a way for a decent college) Once you factor in gas, which is what, about $3.70 a gallon today, and about $3.86 BY THIS WEEKEND and $5.62 by the end of the course , and wear and tear on my car, the savings is not what it would look like initially. I want information beamed straight to my face. Please note that I appreciate very much that you presented another option, however.

[erichzann]

Whoa, it seems as though I'm to dumb to get the quotes around the right places! The last two "quotes" are actually my responces. Although, you all probably figured that out.

[llatham]

Whoa, it seems as though I'm to dumb to get the quotes around the right places! The last two "quotes" are actually my responces. Although, you all probably figured that out.

Yeah, figured it out Your response to me was:

I thought about this but am far less excited about it for a few reasons. I actually took a class a few years ago and was bored to death (granted, I'm less immature now) but since then I have learned quite a bit and am afraid that in a class setting I would be paying to hear alot that I already knew. I think less expensive in this case might actually be less bang for the buck. It is also not self paced most likely. And, lastly, GAS money would shoot the potential savings in the foot. (I'm 45 min to an hour a way for a decent college) Once you factor in gas, which is what, about $3.70 a gallon today, and about $3.86 BY THIS WEEKEND and $5.62 by the end of the course , and wear and tear on my car, the savings is not what it would look like initially. I want information beamed straight to my face. Please note that I appreciate very much that you presented another option, however.

Well it sounds like from the other responses that the Blumberg started as "private lessons". So yes, I can see where sitting in a classroom is not going to give you the bang for the buck. But you might still consider studying privately with a composer or theory instructor. Like others have said, while theory classes might focus on common practice period theory, a contemporary composer will have the knowledge to incorporate 20th century (21st) techniques and early music practices and so on - including world music and jazz depending on the instructor.

I think, the key here is to decide what path you want to pursue, and then find out who can effectively instruct you in that manner. If you're not into the jazz thing, then you may not want to study with someone who is more in that camp. If you want to understand Rennaisance Counterpoint or something, you want to go study with a specialist in that field.

Gas here is was already 3.86, I haven't looked this weekend (I'm literally driving only when absolutely necessary, and forgoing a lot of getting out - and thank God the weather's been such that neither the AC or Heater has been running!!!).

Good Luck,
Steve

[dwillis]

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I have a Dick Grove School Without Walls curriculum that I would sell you if you're interested. I liked it, but I ended up slacking off and never finishing it.

dwillis78@gmail.com (mailto:dwillis78@gmail.com)

[memyselfandus]

I have a Dick Grove School Without Walls curriculum that I would sell you if you're interested. I liked it, but I ended up slacking off and never finishing it.

dwillis78@gmail.com

old thread. did you ever sell the dick grove stuff?