Jazzy chord progressions I can play eminor over

[flex nes]

Hi,

I grew up on metallica, and Im stuck in eminor, now I want to play jazz !

[nuffink]

Jazz doesn't quite work like that. You don't play a single scale over a progression. You play a specific scale over each chord.

[terragong]

http://www.apassion4jazz.net/scales.html

that might help in the future....

[tboulette]

Hi,

I grew up on metallica, and Im stuck in eminor, now I want to play jazz !

Try playing e minor pentatonic over a Dm7 chord, Bb minor pentatonic over a G7#5#9 chord, and B minor pentatonic over a Cmajor7#11 chord.

[psionic]

Hi, I grew up on metallica, and Im stuck in eminor, now I want to play jazz !

Try playing e minor pentatonic over a Dm7 chord, Bb minor pentatonic over a G7#5#9 chord, and B minor pentatonic over a Cmajor7#11 chord.

Are you being serious or facetious here?

Emin pentatonic over a Dm7 sounds halfway decent, just feels really unresolved. A simple D minor scale sounds much better to my ears and has plenty of room for all kinds of musical statements.

Bbmin pentatonic over a G7#5#9?!!!! Yuck! Ugly chord, mis-matched scale. You've got to be kidding around, right?

Bmin pentatonic over Cmaj7#11 sounds not bad, but I still prefer to think of the scale C D E F# G A B C, and not "Bmin pentatonic."

Then again, I'm no jazz aficionado, just a dilettante. Either way, I don't quite see how the above chords/scales help a Metallica Emin player new to jazz.

===================

My approach for a Eminor noodling over chords to sound somewhat jazzy --

Use the Emin scale, but add a couple chromatics typical for blues/pentatonic, namely the Bb and the Eb, esp staying near the flatted note, for runs like E-Eb-D or A-Bb-B. Later, use those flat notes "on their own" away from the "parent" note it wants to lean on -- Bb-G-D A-F#-G A-D#-B E-D... notice how you still eventually resolve those funky chromatics back to their parent notes, just a little bit delayed (the Bb eventually is followed by a B, the D# by the E).

Indeed, one sort of jazzy approach that still likes to stay somewhat near diatonic territory is to just use normal minor scales but sprinkled with tastily used chromatics everywhere.

And just as important! Swing and accents! Feel the triplets, bump to the syncopated offbeats, accent parts of phrase (kinda difficult if you choose a distorted lead sustain with not much dynamic variation -- try clean or crunchy tones, not fuzz).

My two cents.

Chords to use to jazz-metal solo over:

with a C in the Eminor scale: Em9, D9(add6), Cmaj9, C9, Bm7(b9), Am9, Gmaj9, F#dim

with a C# in the Emin scale: Em9, Dmaj9, C#dim, Bm9, A9, G9#11, F#m9

You don't always have to use the ninth or complex form of the chords; using just the 7th often is good enough. And don't forget to "chromaticize" the chord progressions also -- esp the same notes you would flat in the blues scale -- Em7-Eb7-D9, or A9-Bb7-Badd#9 (Jimi!), or even C#dim7-Ddim7-Fmaj7-Emin9

Probably gonna catch all kinda flack for this amateurish advice, but hopefully it's a language a metalhead can understand enough to fairly quickly fake jazz...

[Jafo]

Jazz doesn't quite work like that. You don't play a single scale over a progression. You play a specific scale over each chord.

Absolutely. This is probably the greatest challenge in jazz, whether as a listener or musician -- you've got these shifting tone centers that play into each other, but what you play over them has no relationship whatsoever to the putative key or melody. Drives me nuts. lol

Let's take the common iimin7-V7-I progression. In F, that works out to Gmin7 - C7 - F. A rock guy would play all of these in F major (F G A Bb C D E). But a jazz guy would play G minor (G A Bb C D Eb F) over the Gmin7, C mixolydian (C D E F G A Bb) over the C7, and F Major (F G A Bb C D E F) over the F. Almost the same notes, but not quite -- and the jazz guy would emphasize the tonic of each chord, instead of what the melody or the key demands. What if your melody uses E? The Eb you play against the Gmin and C7 clashes with it. Messy!

But wait, it gets even more complex: Jazz guys also like to substitute scales. Everything is a 7th chord, and if you can interchange the 3rd and b7th, the scales are the same. F7 and B7 have the same tritone notes in common -- F-A-C-Eb, vs. B-D#-F#-A -- which means the jazz guy can choose to play a B mixolydian scale over the F. Or an F# mixolydian over the C.

Or you can play altered chords or scales. I don't even claim to understand what's going on at this point, since it's so far out and away from the song itself. But the jazz guys tell me it makes perfect sense. I dunno; I get the occasional chord substitution as a variation, but... Well, I sorta get this; you can see it as ordinary chromaticism, using whatever colors you like. But it's not the same thing. Supposedly.

Personally, I think it's all just a species of bluff -- identical to throwing random bits of paint at a canvas and calling it art. Or the same sort of thing by which the government that prints the money tells us that we owe it money; or how it says there's a difference between the bills it prints and the identical ones someone else prints -- does the Fed wave a magic wand over its?

Oh my, is that Goebbels I see coming to my impromptu seance?

[tboulette]

Hi, I grew up on metallica, and Im stuck in eminor, now I want to play jazz !

Try playing e minor pentatonic over a Dm7 chord, Bb minor pentatonic over a G7#5#9 chord, and B minor pentatonic over a Cmajor7#11 chord.

Are you being serious or facetious here?

Emin pentatonic over a Dm7 sounds halfway decent, just feels really unresolved. A simple D minor scale sounds much better to my ears and has plenty of room for all kinds of musical statements.

Bbmin pentatonic over a G7#5#9?!!!! Yuck! Ugly chord, mis-matched scale. You've got to be kidding around, right?

Bmin pentatonic over Cmaj7#11 sounds not bad, but I still prefer to think of the scale C D E F# G A B C, and not "Bmin pentatonic."

Then again, I'm no jazz aficionado, just a dilettante. Either way, I don't quite see how the above chords/scales help a Metallica Emin player new to jazz.

First, take it easy, I'm only trying to help. Second, I'm being perfectly serious. This is basic "pentatonics over a ii-V-I progression" theory. Em pentatonic over Dm7 gives you the 9th and 11th extensions, plus the root, 5th, 6th (emphasizing the dorian sound). Bb minor pentatonic == Db major pentatonic, Db being the tritone sub for G7, yielding Bb(#9), Db(b5), Eb(#5), F(b7), and Ab (b9) -- in other words, all the extensions of G altered, plus the b7. B minor pentatonic over CMaj7 gives you the 7th, 9th, 3rd, #11th, and 6th. Again, all the extensions. What's not to love?

If it's not sounding good to you yet, I suggest you spend more time with it. Like everything else, it takes practice to use this in a way that sounds good and idiomatic to jazz.

[BERFAB]

Great responses, all. I have to smile because these mini-jazz disertations are clearly the result of the learned jazz afficianados on this board waiting through endless tarnce questions for the 1-in-a-million jazz question to pop up.

I probably would've posted something similar if I'd seen it earlier.

-B

[tboulette]

Great responses, all. I have to smile because these mini-jazz disertations are clearly the result of the learned jazz afficianados on this board waiting through endless tarnce questions for the 1-in-a-million jazz question to pop up.

I probably would've posted something similar if I'd seen it earlier.

-B

The irony is ...

(wait for it)

... I actually *like* trance. But, clearly I'm not normal -- or whatever passes for "normal" around here!

[Sascha Franck]

Jazz doesn't quite work like that. You don't play a single scale over a progression. You play a specific scale over each chord.

Sorry, but apart from modal contexts, that's utter nonsense and exactly why most young studied players sound that horrible.

Along the same lines goes Jafo's statement:

Let's take the common iimin7-V7-I progression. In F, that works out to Gmin7 - C7 - F. A rock guy would play all of these in F major (F G A Bb C D E). But a jazz guy would play G minor (G A Bb C D Eb F) over the Gmin7, C mixolydian (C D E F G A Bb) over the C7, and F Major (F G A Bb C D E F) over the F. Almost the same notes, but not quite -- and the jazz guy would emphasize the tonic of each chord, instead of what the melody or the key demands.

Sorry again, but that's just the same sort of bullshit.

If you have a II-IV-I progression, you treat it as a major progression and all your melodic phrasing is "targeting" the I chord. Unlike you want to sound like those "scales over melodies" guys from whatver universities.

And fwiw, it's not even being teached that way anymore (at least not in case you have a remotely decent teacher).

There's NO way "the jazz guy would emphasize the tonic of the chord" - at least as a general statement this is as wrong as it gets (btw, there's no tonic of a chord, there's a root).

Apart from actual scale, arpeggio and whatever technical excercises, when you start with jazz improvisation, the VERY first thing you usually do is to think in lines, most likely in socalled "guide lines". These do by NO means emphasize the root of a chord but usually lead from one chord tone to the next seamlessly.
Example (as usual on a II-V-I in C major):
You may start with an F over the Dmin7. Then, on the G7, you may use an E (the 13th) and finally, on the Cj7, you may use a D (the 9th). That's got to be one of the most common guide lines and it's got absolutely nothing to do with different scales over those three chords (which are all derivates of the same major scale anyways) or emphasizing whatever root.

Alright, admittedly, what you do indeed try to do is to stick to chord notes, but as these can be widely expanded, the common way would be to rather not play the socalled "avoid" notes (usually 4ths on major and dominant chords, b13ths and b9ths on minor and major chords, etc). Using lots of chord notes makes it easier to actually keep the progression "audible", which might be of special importance once you don't have someone playing chords (such as, say, in a b, dr, sax trio). And it's also a good vehicle to develop some chops.
But then, the very same thing is true for any good rock improvisor.

There's is a certain sense in teaching "one scale per each chord", though. But it's got more to do with analysis and it's getting important indeed when dealing with modal jazz.
In addition, it's a nice vehicle should there be chords that don't match whatever target scale.
In our II-V-I example this would most likely happen on the G7, which could come with more or less all sorts of alterations. Let's say it's completely altered (G7alt, containing b and #5, b and #9). In that case, it's certainly great to know that an Ab melodic minor scale contains exactly the same (enharmonically exchanged) notes as a G altered scale (btw, there's not exactly a theoretical relation, G altered is in no way the 7th degree of Ab melodic minor, even if a LOT of books try to make you believe in that - it's more of an accident and requires quite a few enharmonical exchanges). In other words: Once you practised Ab melodic minor, you don't need to practise G altered again. That, for me, is the big deal of having separate scale names for each chord. But it still hasn't got anything to do with the actual improvisation.

Btw, tboulette: I didn't expect much people over here to know about that "minor pentatonics going up chromatically over a II-V-I progression" trick. If used properly, this is sounding absolutely gorgeous (especially since the roots of the chord progression are moving down chromatically, once you replace the G7alt with a Db7). Thumbs up!

Anyways, back on topic (even if the OP must be kinda joking).
There's not exactly a way you'd make anything sound halfway authentically "jazzy" when using just one minor pentatonic. Jazz soloing as we may know it is a lot about the already mentioned guide lines, chromaticism, chord notes and what not. Hardly anything you can indeed achieve with a single minor pentatonic.
However, if you just want to fool around, the most common chords to use an Emin pentatonic coming to my mind right now might be these:
Emin7 (with all possible option notes) - who would've thought that...
Fmaj7 (9/#11/13) - gives a quite "open" lydian sound.
Gmaj7 (also G7) (9/#11/13) - won't sound jazzy at all as it'd be a G major pentatonic, missing one of the most important chord notes, the 7th that is.
Amin7 (9/11) - quite a common thing. Misses the 3rd of the chord but adds the 9th, resulting in a slightly "open" sound.
A7sus (9/13) - great choice as it contains all relevant chord notes.
Bmin7 - can only be used very carefully as the G from the scale would clash with the F# in the chord.
Cmaj7 (9/#11/13) - another nice thing as the scale features the j7, 9th and 13th.
Dmin7 (9/11) - will only sort of work as there's the B which may not sound too well over the C. In a modal context it should be fine.
Dmin6 - probably more like it, yet it sounds somewhat distracted.
D7sus - Quite a good choice, but it lacks "concreteness".

There's more chords (such as C#7altered, see above), but they would require some wider theoretical stretches to actually make sense in a progression (and none of those progressions would be suitable in a "only Emin pentatonic" context).

Anyways, you won't be able to make things sound anything like "real" jazz (whatever that means, perhaps I should better say "typical"...).

[nuffink]

And fwiw, it's not even being teached that way anymore

Clearly not around your way, eh sascha? How's business?

[Download SOphist]

wow!

[Download SOphist]

also: you can find some practical guidance here:

(by the way, is the OP still listening?)

cheers!

[psionic]

Thanks for the clarifications, but also I think many more important points are being missed by the added complications, too. For example, what's wrong with this picture --

NEW STUDENT: You know, this Cicero translation looks interesting, comparing the English and Latin translations next to each other. Can you Latin experts give me a tip on how to use some of these quotes and lines?

EXPERT (the following in Latin): Sure, let's start off by analyzing the past perfect and the subjunctive tenses. Notice that the irregular verb forms carry through, as in, "Had he been a would-be published artist, not the has-been he currently is, then of course, then the would've been so-called art could not be, as any future conneisseur knows (or ought) that only posthumous art will become so."

Or a classical alto recorder player shows a passing interest in the alto sax... a friendly tutor is not going to immediately show him various little-used alternate or extended fingerings on the sax which make little sense to the 8-holed recorder player's mentality and likely current uses for the sax.

Or the simple question a metal guitarist asks in how to use an Eminor scale (not pentatonic, Sascha ), but then given the answer, nay, dissertation, including the complex Bbminor pentatonic over a G7#5#9.

While the experts may be technically correct (and who's to say but the experts?), and much strange beauty may be found in strange lands, should we not instead take baby steps? In both theory and in practice?

It's demanding enough to get a metalhead to speak and converse outside of TAB. And we answer him with how, in practice, a G7alt scale is the same (enharmonically exchanged) as an Ab melodic minor scale, but not in theory

Unless, of course, the implicit goal is to either condescend, hijack, self-ingratiate, or otherwise totally speak over the original student's post...

In which case, carry on.

[gunnare]

Hello!

You can play e-minor scale over all the chords in the e-minor system.

That can either be in the key G:
G
Am
Bm
C
D
Em
F#mb5

Or the key e-minor:
Em
F#mb5
G
Am
B(This chord is an exception and the scale must be changed)
C
D

Obs: In minor the 5 step (B) has to be changed from minor to major. It has been like that since Bach......

Som of the answers above are misleading: In jazz it is better to use as few scales as possible.
Few scales=natural sounding.
More scales=more intellectual and strange sounding.

And Sacha Frank is correct in his post..