Jazzy chord progressions I can play eminor over

[nuffink]

Som of the answers above are misleading:

Indeed. I'm sure your introduction of Hm into the proceedings helped though.

[Sascha Franck]

Or the simple question a metal guitarist asks in how to use an Eminor scale (not pentatonic, Sascha )

Whoops! My bad!

It's demanding enough to get a metalhead to speak and converse outside of TAB. And we answer him with how, in practice, a G7alt scale is the same (enharmonically exchanged) as an Ab melodic minor scale, but not in theory

Completely charged as guilty.
Sorry, it's just too easy to get carried away sometimes, especially on KVR.

Anyways, if we skipped the entire theory debate, the only answer would probably have been: "Impossible". Not exactly satisfying either.

But well, as I now know it's not limited to a pentatonic scale, I'll try to do better, assuming we're talking about E natural minor here (E, F#, G, A, B, C, D)

I would try to stay well within the "natural limits" of E minor for now. Sort of jazzy progressions this would work with (things in brackets are optional, usually adding a somewhat more jazzy feel to the chords):

F#min7/b5 (11) - B7 (b9/b13) - Emin7 (9/11)
Note: There will probably be a certain clash between the D# of the B7 chord and the D of the E minor scale. Try to either avoid it or just raise the D to a D# for the moment the B7 occurs (if your fingers allow).

Amin7 (9/11) - B7 (b9/b13) - Emin7 (9/11)
Funtionally almost the same as the first progression, Amin7 and F#min/b5 are more or less interchangeable in this context. Might give you a nice variation.

On both progressions, try to emphasize other notes than the roots or thirds of the current chord. Will give you a more "open feeling". For instance, try some melodic ideas around (or targeting) the F# when the Emin7 is due to be played.
Also, try to avoid the C over the Emin7.

Amin7 (9/11) - D7 (9/13) - Gmaj7 (9/13)
In this case, the E minor scale becomes a G major scale.
What you need to try is to phrase your lines in a way they sort of center around something suitable for G. But the progression will most likely dictate that already.
In this progression, the D7 could be replaced by a D7sus4, but it will sound less like typical jazz, more like a pop-ish interpretation.
This progression could be expanded to:
Amin7 (9/11) - D7 (9/13) - Gmaj7 (9/13) - E7 (b13 and later on perhaps b9).
Yes, you heard right, E7, with a G# instead of a G. And well, while you could try to either avoid the G over the E7 chord, while you could as well just try to raise it to become G# (similar as for the B7 chord in the previous example), in quite some situations the G wouldn't harm, unless you're using it as a target note.

The single most important thing in all this is to use some of the optional chord notes for both the chord playback and your melodies. In addition, guide lines are a good thing to experiment with, but well, for a start you should just try to stick with what we have so far.

[nuffink]

Guide tones, Sacha. At a pinch guide tone lines. But not guide lines.

[psionic]

also: you can find some practical guidance here:

(by the way, is the OP still listening?)

cheers!

Nice, thanks for that (the link as well as the shout out to the OP).

The Joe Pass video lessons are pretty good, and relevant here. Not too much complicated theory, just a sprinkle here and there hinting at what the student has yet to learn.

To the OP -- the blues chord progression is a good launching point. Yeah, yeah, they may be overdone, but at least you have a basic structure to work with that you can then change up. Like with the Ab7-G change, because the Ab is the flatted fifth of the D7, which is the fifth/dominant of the G.

So, some more starter material and tips:

1) use 7ths of chords everywhere
2) then add 9ths, #9s (but not b9's, not for awhile)
3) know at least how dominant resolution works (in Em, the dom is B7)
4) know the circle of fifths, how the fifth7 likes to resolve into the I
5) from that, understand the classic ii-V-I (thx tboullette)
6) then understand the bii-V7-I (like the Ab Joe uses in his G blues lesson)

If you combine the above tips with the chromatic approach I suggested earlier, that should get you off running while still keeping your feet on the ground, and not worried about your head in the thunderclouds, so to speak.

[gunnare]

I edited my post. Of course H is the dominant in e-minor.

and yes, you can play e-minor over Hm if the key is G.

[psionic]

Or the simple question a metal guitarist asks in how to use an Eminor scale (not pentatonic, Sascha )

Whoops! My bad!

It's demanding enough to get a metalhead to speak and converse outside of TAB. And we answer him with how, in practice, a G7alt scale is the same (enharmonically exchanged) as an Ab melodic minor scale, but not in theory

Completely charged as guilty.
Sorry, it's just too easy to get carried away sometimes, especially on KVR.

Anyways, if we skipped the entire theory debate, the only answer would probably have been: "Impossible". Not exactly satisfying either.

But well, as I now know it's not limited to a pentatonic scale, I'll try to do better, assuming we're talking about E natural minor here (E, F#, G, A, B, C, D)

I would try to stay well within the "natural limits" of E minor for now. Sort of jazzy progressions this would work with (things in brackets are optional, usually adding a somewhat more jazzy feel to the chords):

F#min7/b5 (11) - B7 (b9/b13) - Emin7 (9/11)
Note: There will probably be a certain clash between the D# of the B7 chord and the D of the E minor scale. Try to either avoid it or just raise the D to a D# for the moment the B7 occurs (if your fingers allow).

Amin7 (9/11) - B7 (b9/b13) - Emin7 (9/11)
Funtionally almost the same as the first progression, Amin7 and F#min/b5 are more or less interchangeable in this context. Might give you a nice variation.

On both progressions, try to emphasize other notes than the roots or thirds of the current chord. Will give you a more "open feeling". For instance, try some melodic ideas around (or targeting) the F# when the Emin7 is due to be played.
Also, try to avoid the C over the Emin7.

Amin7 (9/11) - D7 (9/13) - Gmaj7 (9/13)
In this case, the E minor scale becomes a G major scale.
What you need to try is to phrase your lines in a way they sort of center around something suitable for G. But the progression will most likely dictate that already.
In this progression, the D7 could be replaced by a D7sus4, but it will sound less like typical jazz, more like a pop-ish interpretation.
This progression could be expanded to:
Amin7 (9/11) - D7 (9/13) - Gmaj7 (9/13) - E7 (b13 and later on perhaps b9).
Yes, you heard right, E7, with a G# instead of a G. And well, while you could try to either avoid the G over the E7 chord, while you could as well just try to raise it to become G# (similar as for the B7 chord in the previous example), in quite some situations the G wouldn't harm, unless you're using it as a target note.

The single most important thing in all this is to use some of the optional chord notes for both the chord playback and your melodies. In addition, guide lines are a good thing to experiment with, but well, for a start you should just try to stick with what we have so far.

Woot, much better, and much more practical! Esp for jazz wanna-be's like myself There's enough theory to practice there. One more baby step taken here

[Sascha Franck]

Guide tones, Sacha. At a pinch guide tone lines. But not guide lines.

I learned the term "guide lines". No idea whether that's incorrect.

[nuffink]

I edited my post. Of course H is the dominant in e-minor.

and yes, you can play e-minor over Hm if the key is G.

That wasn't quite what I meant. Anglos don't do H they do B.

[nuffink]

... doob 'n do b

[tboulette]

@psionic:

Hopefully not belaboring the point, but my original post just offered some pentatonic scale ideas to play, and I would hope even our metalhead OP at least knows that much. The pentatonic scale was the second thing I learned after the Smoke on the Water riff!

[tapper mike]

I've been playing trad, bebop, fusion and smooth for 20+ years now.
In regards to not emphasising the tonic in jazz,,,,

Bullshit.

All Jazz is jazz not all jazz applies the same methodology,
Open up some standards epecially from the big band era and look at the actual notation.

[Sascha Franck]

Open up some standards epecially from the big band era and look at the actual notation.

Err - yes. And?

[xtp]

Before launching deeply into theory wherefores and whynots, why not go out and buy some jazz albums, stick them on the stereo, pull out your guitar and start jamming along using your minor scale.

Get a feel for whats happening and use your ears to plot out some notes and build a couple of scales/modes onto the playing knowledge of your minor scale.

Try finding them by ear first, then figure out what you have done later, this way you start to build your own perception of jazz, your own approach. Jazz is a very individual thing. If you dont like a rule, break it... or if you need a new one, make it.


Jazz is a vast and progressive form of music and a lot of fun, not only will it extend your personal level of playing but it will also challenge and extend your musical boundaries, and maybe your attitudes and approach to music.

Have fun

[tapper mike]

Open up some standards epecially from the big band era and look at the actual notation.

Err - yes. And?

The true study of jazz starts by playing jazz.
Everyone here is so busy throwing spewing concepts that were spawned by retrospection then by inspiration.

No one learns how to swim by reading a book on the theory of swimming.

If you really want to learn jazz start with a standard. see how the notes in that song relate to the chord that it is supporting.

Not all songs jazz songs focus on guide tones for moving the melody along the path of the chord progression.

[Sascha Franck]

Not all songs jazz songs focus on guide tones for moving the melody along the path of the chord progression.

Defenitely not.
But they don't emphasize the root of the chord either.
Example (could there be a more popular one?): "Autumn Leaves". The melody emphasizes the thirds of the used chords. Oh yes, this, as an approach, is as "chord based" as using root notes would be.
Same with "All The Things You Are". Again, thirds are the most emphasized notes.
Same with countless more. The "let's emphasize the root" approach simply isn't true at all, just as the "let's use a different scale for each chord" isn't true.
In standard themes, you will however find a lot of targetted chord notes that are well inside the basic 4part structure of the used 7th chord (most will even target notes inside the basic triad). But that's merely because most standards aren't genuine jazz compositions but often based on older traditionals.

And then there's quite another approach that you could find, pretty much similar to a guide line approach. Let's have a look at "One Note Samba". In this case, it's almost like a guide line approach, just saying "let's keep the melody with as few steps as possible", all that put to an extreme, in that the melody isn't moving around at all, for each and every chord it's another option note of the chord that is used as a melody. Again, no root emphasizing at all.

Yet another one? Let's have a look at "Beautiful Love".
The changes with their target melody notes are:
Em7/b5 - target note a. That's the 11th.
A7 - target note F. That's the b13th.
Dmin7 - target note F. That's the min 3rd.
Gmin7 - target note C. That's the 11th.
C7 - target note A. That's the 13th.
Fmaj7 - target note A. That's the maj 3rd.
This seems to follow quite another principle, such as "let's use higher chord degrees for the II-Vs and a tone well inside the chord for the tonic". But still, no root notes are harmed all throughout (at least not as target notes).

There's probably countless examples of how root notes aren't emphasized at all whereas there's very few examples in which root notes are actually used as melodic targets.