KVR Audio

Uncle E · Post by **Uncle E** » Sat May 31, 2008 9:52 am

Subtle wrote:Ive used the Timeworks Mastering compressor for 4 years now on all my tracks, I like the sound and use of it.

I used the Timeworks Mastering Compressor for many years, since back when it was first released around the year 2000. It was fantastic for the time but it'll create nasty, L1-ish distortion when pushed to the degree that the better limiters of today can handle. Anyway, if you're set on continuing to use it, try raising the release, you'll hear more of the compression when you do that but you'll also hear less of the distortion, which is really the worse of the two evils.

Uncle E · Post by **Uncle E** » Sat May 31, 2008 10:07 am

chicken muffin wrote:as far as mastering goes. don't get to loud with your mix in the beginning of producing a song. stay at a medium level. the loudness comes in the mastering not the mixing. if you make your mix to loud too early, once you start to master your track you will find your self stepping in a deep puddle of mud

I'm going to go out a limb here and assume that you mean not to go overboard squashing the main buss with a brickwall limiter, in which case you and Kim may not be in as much disagreement as you think you are. If the ultimate goal is a loud mix, you should strive to control the dynamics of each individual track in a mix - which I think is Kim's point - but any compression applied to the main buss should be done for the sake of getting that softer, SSL-style compressed-main-buss sound, not for loudness. Save the brickwall limiting for mastering.

annode · Post by **annode** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:44 pm

After 4 pages on a limitor question I should be hung by my balls for this bounce.
I just have to laugh at those who choose to teach someone all known knowledge in one reply post.(strapping the harness on...)
A limitor is a real simple compressor configuation. It does two things,it raises the volume level on one fader and then with the other fader sets the point where the sound can not get ant louder...at that point it extremely hard knee compresses where you set the cap of the headroom.

Done.

Cordelia · Post by **Cordelia** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:03 am

I'm not sure I get your point. But, it's good to bump this thread.

Well, who doesn't know what a limiter is? Obviously, it's so simple.

Kim's post explained step by step procedures for getting good, consistent results. His methodology was new to me, and I appreciate his time and input. He also addressed the issue of "how much?" not just "what is?".
I don't believe he imagines he's just taught anyone "all known knowledge".

If I've misunderstood your post, annode, I apologize.

annode · Post by **annode** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:35 am

Your right Cordelia. I don't knock those who want to learn, but those who have most to say have little learning themselves in many cases. This is NOT the case with Kim in my experience...but I choose to recommend learning from books and magazine articals rather then ppl in forums who want to, show you the way.
I like picking up and giving someone the knowledge to fish, if simply possible, before i'll go into to much of my own virtual idealisms.

The postor asked for the best results he could get from a limitor.
That's subjective. That was my inuendo by simplifying the limitor.

jdtrbn · Post by **jdtrbn** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:55 am

Subtle wrote: I want my tunes to be heavily compressed and have a straight waveform.

But in order to do that i have to clear out the peaks, and im afraid if i limit too much i loose something.

Compression is a way to shape the sound, whereas limiting is usually meant to be transparent. Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't compression come first and limiting the very last?

anfmusic · Post by **anfmusic** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:59 am

Well compression should come before limiting. Many Engineers actually put an EQ first in the chain; I usually use a compressor first.

Cordelia · Post by **Cordelia** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:24 am

annode wrote:Your right Cordelia. I don't knock those who want to learn, but those who have most to say have little learning themselves in many cases. This is NOT the case with Kim in my experience...but I choose to recommend learning from books and magazine articals rather then ppl in forums who want to, show you the way.
I like picking up and giving someone the knowledge to fish, if simply possible, before i'll go into to much of my own virtual idealisms.

The postor asked for the best results he could get from a limitor.
That's subjective. That was my inuendo by simplifying the limitor.

Cool, annode, I understand now.

Actually I've always employed a mastering engineer to master my CDs, and never attempted to do it myself, but the subject interests me. Now that I'm not on a label, it might be something I'll want to learn more about.
I've read the iZotope Mastering .pdf, lots of articles on mastering, many articles at Bob Katz' site, and although I'm starting to understand the theories, I haven't run across many "hands on" useful tips.

Sometimes someone can write something that lights up a different part of my brain, as Kim's post did.

Kim Lajoie · Post by **Kim Lajoie** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:54 am

Uncle E wrote:
chicken muffin wrote:as far as mastering goes. don't get to loud with your mix in the beginning of producing a song. stay at a medium level. the loudness comes in the mastering not the mixing. if you make your mix to loud too early, once you start to master your track you will find your self stepping in a deep puddle of mud
I'm going to go out a limb here and assume that you mean not to go overboard squashing the main buss with a brickwall limiter, in which case you and Kim may not be in as much disagreement as you think you are. If the ultimate goal is a loud mix, you should strive to control the dynamics of each individual track in a mix - which I think is Kim's point - but any compression applied to the main buss should be done for the sake of getting that softer, SSL-style compressed-main-buss sound, not for loudness. Save the brickwall limiting for mastering.

Well put. I should have clarified. "Loudness" (peak/average ratio) should be addressed as much as possible (or appropriate) at the mix stage by processing individuals tracks. On the other hand "Loudness" (distance from 0dBfs) should be addressed in mastering.

-Kim.

davidbuhau · Post by **davidbuhau** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:03 am

less is more. it's really important that the track sound good with the compression in the master channel turned off.

i cannot stand the sound of squashed mixes... they give me a headache...

it's always nice to have a little bit of boost in the average rms value, but so many people over do it... and, say in a trance song, when the breakdown happens, the pads and arps n stuff boost up, so when everything comes back in, it's really anti-climactic.

tonAP · Post by **tonAP** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:48 am

Bump:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 00#3089247
@donkey tugger for ever!

I'm serious on this: [edit: paradoxically] besides his nice sense of humour, that reply shows *graphically* very well the whole 'how much' argument. Really: re-read the whole subject+content+pictures and you'll see what i mean: the snapshots sequence shows pretty well what happens to the dynamic range.

Then it's really a matter of taste..

qa2pir · Post by **qa2pir** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:40 pm

I just wanted to add (to the OP) that you don't need to save headroom. You've saved something like 6 db of headroom in those pictures (unless those are quieter parts of a song) and that's not necessary. You'll just waste a lot of bits for silence doing that. Of course you might be working with floating point files, and then it is no problem. But I just wanted to clarify that you don't have to - and shouldn't - save "headroom" because whoever masters your tracks can lower the volume very easily themselves if needed.

jdtrbn · Post by **jdtrbn** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:38 pm

qa2pir wrote: But I just wanted to clarify that you don't have to - and shouldn't - save "headroom" because whoever masters your tracks can lower the volume very easily themselves if needed.

Mm, didn't he say that he's mastering the track himself? Again I'm not sure but I've understood that a bit of headroom (like 0.3db) is good as a safety measure, because low quality D/A -converters can make interpolation errors when samples go to the limit.

annode · Post by **annode** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:41 pm

Hi Cordelia.

I've read the iZotope Mastering .pdf, lots of articles on mastering, many articles at Bob Katz' site, and although I'm starting to understand the theories, I haven't run across many "hands on" useful tips.

I have the Katz book.That is a good read and reference for understanding the technical ends of mastering devices. Highly recommended.
I also have the Steinberg audio mastering series videos. Much of that is talk but it is sequencial in the presentation and moves quickly with very detailed info. Highly recommended.
One last thing...home mastering doesn't have to be all VST of course.
Outboard compression and EQ can be terrific for quality and hands on.

Bye.Good luck.

Mastering, how much should I limit ?