Jazzy chord progressions I can play eminor over

[nuffink]

C7 - target note A. That's the 13th.

You reckon?

[Sascha Franck]

You reckon?

???
What else should it be?

[nuffink]

Ab

[Sascha Franck]

Ab

That'd be the b13th. A is the 13th for a C7.

[nuffink]

Ab

That'd be the b13th. A is the 13th for a C7.

Indeed.

[Sascha Franck]

Indeed.

Errr - so? What are you saying? In "Beautiful Love", the melody target note over the C7 is an A, not an Ab.

[nuffink]

Indeed.

Errr - so? What are you saying? In "Beautiful Love", the melody target note over the C7 is an A, not an Ab.

Apologies. A late one last night and I wasn't concentrating. I assure you that you now have my undivided attention.

The normal guide tones are the 3rd and 7th of the chord. So the 7th of C7 would be Bb. Why are you suggesting an Ab which is the 6th of the chord?

edit.

Still not concentrating. You're suggesting A which isn't a chord tone.

[Sascha Franck]

The normal guide tones are the 3rd and 7th of the chord. So the 7th of C7 would be Bb. Why are you suggesting an Ab which is the 6th of the chord?

See, I am not suggesting anything at all. I was just following tapper mike's advice to analyse whatever standards. So I did. And in "Beautiful Love" you simply find an A as the melody note over the C7.

Fwiw, it could as well be that "Beautiful Love" as we find it in whatever realbooks is re-harmonized already - especially since the first two II-V-I progressions (1st one in D min, second on in F maj) are using the same melodic target notes (11 - 13 - 3, only adjusted to be suitable for minor/major), but these days it's more or less the only versions you hear on whatever sessions and recordings or so.

Whatever. All I wanted to say is that even with plain written melodies, there's quite a lot of approaches in terms of "target note choice" - in case there's something worth to be called an "approach" at all (I'm quite oldskool in believing that a proper melody will work on it's own, regardless what the target notes in relation to the chord are - just that we may find certain note choices to sound more plausible).
Sometimes there's almost exclusively target notes which are well "inside" the chord under them (1, 3, 5 and perhaps an occasional 7), sometimes there's pretty much varying degrees (such as in "One Note Samba"), creating whatever tensions and sometimes there's kind of a mixed approach (such as in "Beautiful Love").

And well, all of these melody choices often don't have much to do with improvisation. Yes, usually, when you start with jazz improvisation, teachers may ask you to actually play around the main melody target notes, but once you proceed, a lot of other approaches are just as valid (such as "stay inside scales", "use guide lines", "use 4 part chord notes only", "try to stick to as few notes as possible" and what not), some being more melody oriented, some being made to develop certain chops (such as scales and arpeggios).

Anyways, especially in case it's a melody going straight to your head, it's a very good thing to work around/along with it for a start. Not only because you will probably make less "target note mistakes", not only because it's somewhat easier, but also because you may catch the listener's interest more easily, because they're already somewhat accustomed to the melody and would probably say "oh!" when you start to slightly alter whatever ingredients of said given melody.

[nuffink]

Ignore me Sascha. I'm crap before about 5pm at the best of times. I misread what you wrote, misthunked what I'd read and mistyped what I'd misthunk.

I should probably just go back to bed.

[jdtrbn]

Jazz theory gets many of us very talkative, nothing wrong with that.

What about:
Em9 Cmaj7 G Bm7

Ignoring half of the question, try this (slowly):
Em9 Bbmaj9 Abmaj7 Bm7

It's not a crazy sounding progression, but playing just one scale over it may be quite... restricting. Have fun!

[Sascha Franck]

Ignoring half of the question, try this (slowly):
Em9 Bbmaj9 Abmaj7 Bm7

It's not a crazy sounding progression, but playing just one scale over it may be quite... restricting. Have fun!

Yeah well, especially using just an E minor scale won't take you too far.

[tapper mike]

Re Em9 Cmaj7 G Bm7
That's not a jazzy progression. Putting any progression on a swing beat doesn't make the song "Jazzy" depending on your definition of jazz is.

Em9 Bbmaj9 Abmaj7 Bm7 - Reminds me of James Bond intro

Just for giggles and thrills we should have a midi jazz tennis the way graphic artists have photoshop tennis.

Everyone starts with the same progression and writes a melody

[psionic]

Very glad this thread was started. It's exactly the material I need to develop further at my level. So let me summarize in bullet points the main ideas. Let me know if I missed any.

- study standards to get your feet wet (melodies, chords progressions)
- learn the different scales, and what chords they fit over
- improvise using melody, target chord notes, guide notes, pieces of scale

I have to confess the only jazz progression I know is Autumn Leaves, so that was excellent Sascha picked that one out as a counter-example to the notion of soloing only to the root of the song. I've been noodling over that one for years when I happened to come across a keyboard, and only know it Gm. Now that I'm spending a steady couple hours a day on an 88key, it's ripe time for me to move further. The above 3 points are plenty to go a long way from where I'm at.

I do, however, now have some questions regarding "approach" or "intent" and how it affects "delivery style." I'll try to keep it short, but I'm going to break it down using various instruments as reference points. Basically, I'm trying to ask if/how one improvises as a technician spewing out chops, a melody maker eking out emotive and catchy phrases, or as an artist stretching bounds.

keys/frets
These instruments have great dexterity, and are the default reference points when talking theory. You can get most technical here, where the limitations are mostly what's in your head vs what's in your hands. By this I mean keyboards are where you can "think it then do it"; while your own personal technical limitations hold you back, the theory or intent in your head comes closest or easiest to express.

trombone/scat/fretless bass
The basic task of working to stay in tune within the scale, along with the higher energy required just to transition from note to note, presents the toughest challenge to these instruments. You're also limited by octave range and speed. So rather than spewing out endless strings of quickly moving notes, proportionally as an artist you focus more on the intentional and emotive content, more on stretching bounds and exploiting what few tools and strengths you have (slides, growls, sustains, character).

trumpet/sax/other agile sustainers
These breeds enjoy both technical facility of the keys and the sustain & character of wind instruments in general. I play keys, guitars, and trombone, and perhaps by year's end an EWI, so I ask more about the approach of trumpeters and saxophonists just to learn how they think, for education and theory, and what I can then take from that and apply to either the keys/synth or trombone. I'm not jealous of them, really, but I would like to outshine them when I can, and at least compete with them when I can't.

Is this pretty much how it's done, or are these just limiting perceptions that don't really do anything to further oneself as a jazz artist?

After getting answers to these lingering questions, I reckon I have more than enough sketched out on my makeshift map to dive right into the journey and explore my own frontiers. So much to do, so little time and discipline.

[xtp]

Just for giggles and thrills we should have a midi jazz tennis the way graphic artists have photoshop tennis.Everyone starts with the same progression and writes a melody

I would give that a go for humor if enough people were interested. [as long as i didnt have to supply the rythem section as my playin generally only runs to notes and intervals, punctuated by the occasional 7b5, and even rarer 6th, 9th or diminshed]

I love improvisation.

[tapper mike]

b-i-a-b is my great undoing.

http://pgmusic.com/

I've got over 2,000 files in biab format most jazz standards including the entire real book.
Although I haven't updated since 2004.

When ever I feel the urge to write something "tin pan alley"
I open it up pick a style and start putting chords in bars or half bars.

All the measures are displayed on screen with simply chord names.

It's like karaoke for jazz players

Here is a screencast of how it works.
http://tone-blocks.com/kvr/biab.html